So...Exactly what good is that knife in your purse?

[shesulsa]

I read the subject and OP of this thread as an issue of deployment, and since this is in the General Self Defense forum, I took it as not necessarily knife-specific.

When observing training, we can see that when partners prepare to train weapons techniques, where is the (for the purpose of this argument) knife? Likely, it's already in hand. I haven't seen too many techniques performed where the weapon-wielder must draw the knife, gun, stick, etcetera.

In discussions like this one, you'll often see me type the following question: Anyone ever seen Taxi Driver?

The point to that question, if you've never seen the movie, is the footage of the De Niro character repeatedly practicing drawing/ejecting his weapons. And he does it over and over and over.

I heard an MMA stylist brag one time, "I can shoot your leg before you can deploy your knife." Good challenge. So can you deploy your knife/gun/stick/weapon of choice before you find yourself on the ground?

 

[Rich Parsons]

I read the subject and OP of this thread as an issue of deployment, and since this is in the General Self Defense forum, I took it as not necessarily knife-specific.

When observing training, we can see that when partners prepare to train weapons techniques, where is the (for the purpose of this argument) knife? Likely, it's already in hand. I haven't seen too many techniques performed where the weapon-wielder must draw the knife, gun, stick, etcetera.

In discussions like this one, you'll often see me type the following question: Anyone ever seen Taxi Driver?

The point to that question, if you've never seen the movie, is the footage of the De Niro character repeatedly practicing drawing/ejecting his weapons. And he does it over and over and over.

I heard an MMA stylist brag one time, "I can shoot your leg before you can deploy your knife." Good challenge. So can you deploy your knife/gun/stick/weapon of choice before you find yourself on the ground?

So you mean practicing opening your knife while driving is not normal behaviour? Playing with it until the balance is second nature and you know exactly where it is based upon feel alone is not the thing to do?

As to deploying my weapon of choice before hitting the ground, I have deployed a weapon many times in training on the ground. It works great when the other person just thinks it is a take down. It opens their mind to how they need to monitor the hands and also be checking the body of the opponent for weapons and not jsut trying to dominate them. I of course have done this with people knowing it was going to happen. It changes the dynamics a lot. Of course I cheated their as well. I had no problems deploying their weapon and using it against them even when I was playing the agressor. People need to understand, that the bad guy will do lots of things to hurt you. But also that it is not over on the first hit or if you go to the ground. There are still options and possibilities.

 

[KenpoTex]

...So can you deploy your knife/gun/stick/weapon of choice before you find yourself on the ground?

Rich beat me to it but basically I was going to respond that I practice deploying my various weapons in a variety of scenarios, including being on the ground.

BTW...seeing the expression on someone's face when you suddenly drag a trainer (that they didn't know you had) across their throat while they were trying to arm-bar you is priceless

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich beat me to it but basically I was going to respond that I practice deploying my various weapons in a variety of scenarios, including being on the ground.

BTW...seeing the expression on someone's face when you suddenly drag a trainer (that they didn't know you had) across their throat while they were trying to arm-bar you is priceless

Kenpo-Tex,

I may have posted before you, but I was not the first, and I most definitely did not beat you. I was just in the right place at the right time.

I agree it is a priceless moment when you surprise someone like that.

 

[shesulsa]

I'd say deploying your weapon in any manner of pose is important to know - how about the bathroom?

Someone told me once that if I didn't feel as comfortable with my knife as I do with my toothbrush that I shouldn't carry it. I thought that was an interesting statement - you don't have to think about how you hold your toothbrush (of course, it's a basic grip), you can manipulate it into a variety of angles and positions to reach all areas in your mouth ....

 

[KenpoTex]

I'd say deploying your weapon in any manner of pose is important to know - how about the bathroom?

Someone told me once that if I didn't feel as comfortable with my knife as I do with my toothbrush that I shouldn't carry it. I thought that was an interesting statement - you don't have to think about how you hold your toothbrush (of course, it's a basic grip), you can manipulate it into a variety of angles and positions to reach all areas in your mouth ....

Many of us are used to carrying knives and using them for all manner of tasks. I could probably count on my fingers the number of days since I was about 7 that I haven't carried one. I've used a knife for everything from stripping wire to cutting an apple, from cleaning mud off my boots and opening my mail to skinning game. As a result, I'm so used to using a knife for a variety of tasks that making the transition to training to use it for SD was very easy.

This is the reason that whenever someone asks me about getting a knife to carry for SD, one of the first things I tell them is just to "play with it." Open it and close it as many ways as you can think of, practice drawing it from a variety of locations, sit there while you're watching t.v. and change grips, etc. I think a lot of people are a little intimidated with the idea of using a knife for SD if they don't have a lot of experience with them. You're basically asking them to take a tool that they are unfamiliar with and use it in a life or death type of situation. By increasing your overall comfort level and familiarity with the tool, your confidence and proficiency in the SD realm will also increase.

 

[qi-tah]

Just a thought (or two)

What about a screwdriver? At any given time i could probably lay my hands on my little phillips head sooner than i could my leatherman... no sheath to worry about, a stabbing weapon (not fond of the idea of slashing - too slow) and i bet it would hurt more going in than a knife! <ouch!> Don't know about the resistance of the skin to a screwdriver stab though... it might be a little tough.

On another tack, what's the creepiest stock-in-trade of the horror movie industry..? I'd venture that one of them would be the autopsy on someone who isn't dead yet. If you think about it, that's kinda what you are doing to someone else if you knife them. I used to work in a morturary and often felt the need to apologise to the bodies before i cut them open. I never got over that, and they were dead! Things would have to be very dire indeed before i'd prefer that terrible intimacy to the alternative...

 

[tshadowchaser]

I am not going to go back and reread this whole thread at this time but would like to say this:

My wife carries a rather large knife in her purse most of the time and I have seen it come out of that purse ( which I could not find any thing in if I had to) rather quickly when she needed it to or wanted to use it. She knows how to get to it and have it out in a hartbeat. And yes if it comes out she damn well intends to cut someone

 

[kidswarrior]

I am not going to go back and reread this whole thread at this time but would like to say this:

My wife carries a rather large knife in her purse most of the time and I have seen it come out of that purse ( which I could not find any thing in if I had to) rather quickly when she needed it to or wanted to use it. She knows how to get to it and have it out in a hartbeat. And yes if it comes out she damn well intends to cut someone

So, Shadow, when she has her purse, I take it you're especially nice to her? No, Dear. Yes, Dear? Know I would be.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread, just had that vision in my head and had to share.

 

[KenpoTex]

*bump* good thread

 

[Lisa]

I am not going to go back and reread this whole thread at this time but would like to say this:

My wife carries a rather large knife in her purse most of the time and I have seen it come out of that purse ( which I could not find any thing in if I had to) rather quickly when she needed it to or wanted to use it. She knows how to get to it and have it out in a hartbeat. And yes if it comes out she damn well intends to cut someone

and, I am making a bit of a presumption here but...I have the feeling that she has training with that knife, right? She is trained and has practiced using that knife.

My original post was aimed at these teenage girls I know that carry them for "protection" and all I can imagine is by the time they need it, or realize they need it, it will be too late.

Its cases of "date rape" that come to my mind. Here they are out with some "hot guy" that they really like, they have had a little too much to drink and he starts taking advantage of her. By that point and time, how is she going to get that knife out of her purse as he forces himself on her?

Good self defense for young women is teaching them never to get into that situation in the first place. Don't rely on a weapon that you a) don't have quick access to b) could be used against you and c) don't know how to use even if you could get to it in the first place.

 

[KenpoTex]

Good self defense for young women is teaching them never to get into that situation in the first place. Don't rely on a weapon that you a) don't have quick access to b) could be used against you and c) don't know how to use even if you could get to it in the first place.

I think if you have "a" and "c" covered (you can deploy it cleanly and are trained with it), "b" is much less likely to happen.

 

[theletch1]

I think if you have "a" and "c" covered (you can deploy it cleanly and are trained with it), "b" is much less likely to happen.

Agreed.

The date rape scene adds an entire different element to things. The comfort zone when on a date is alot closer than the random attacker in the parking garage or elsewhere. The absolute best thing a young woman can do is train consistantly in a martial art. Barring that she should attend a good quality sexual assault prevention course and then practice the skills she'll pick up there...and practice them some more...and practice them some more. You're born with weapons already attached to your body and THEY take training to be able to use efficiently. How much more training does a weapon that you have to add on take?

 

[arnisador]

Eh, a push dagger hidden in the belt in the right rear area can go a long way in a date rape case...if someone is willing to use it. Date rape can be a quite complicated situation. It's one reason I prefer to recommend mace/pepper spray for many situations (perhaps not this particular one if they're already in close proximity) over a knife...people would be willing to mace someone who wouldn't be willing to knfie someone.

 

[7starmarc]

Just wondering if anyone happens to know. Where does rape (date or otherwise) come into play in the spectrum of violence (non-lethal vs. lethal)? Because if that young lady uses a knife to blunt amorous advances from a not-so-friendly suitor, does she risk being brought up on charges?

 

[jks9199]

Just wondering if anyone happens to know. Where does rape (date or otherwise) come into play in the spectrum of violence (non-lethal vs. lethal)? Because if that young lady uses a knife to blunt amorous advances from a not-so-friendly suitor, does she risk being brought up on charges?

It's generally no different than any other question of self-defense. Was the force in question reasonable relative to the threat present? An attempt at date rape involves one or more forms of assault; the force to defend against them must be reasonable and proportionate to the particular attack. A wrist grab is different from being pinned on a couch, which is different from being shown a gun or knife, and told to comply. All can happen in a date rape scenario.

 

[tellner]

Just wondering if anyone happens to know. Where does rape (date or otherwise) come into play in the spectrum of violence (non-lethal vs. lethal)? Because if that young lady uses a knife to blunt amorous advances from a not-so-friendly suitor, does she risk being brought up on charges?

*grumble* *snarl* *growl* motherloving Internet Explorerer. only thing it does quickly is crash *grumble*

I had a long answer to your question. Now I've got to re-write the puppy after the damned browser crashed.

Grrr

Anyhow, here's what I was writing when Micro$oft so rudely interrupted...

O Disclaimer

I'm not a lawyer. I'm certainly not your lawyer. If you are stupid enough to take legal advice from me you probably deserve to be in a Home for the Feeble-Minded. There are people who give legal advice for a living. They are called "Attorneys" in the US and "Barristers" or "Solicitors" in the UK depending on how close they get to courtrooms.

There are some people who are not lawyers who give excellent advice on self defense. Massad Ayoob is one of the best. He gives a forty hour course on the legal and ethical aspects of the use of force in self defense that's half classroom and half range time. It is more thorough than what lawyers learn in law school. Take it. It will be the best self defense investment you will ever make.

I've used "he" for the rapist and "she" for the defender. Yes. Men rape men. Women rape women. Women rape men. The question was about men raping women, and that does cover the vast majority of such crimes in the normal course of things.

I General Thoughts on Self Defense and the Law

See above. I'm just a self defense and martial arts teacher who takes an interest in aspects of the subject outside how to hit and stab people. Go to the experts for more authoritative opinions. These are just my somewhat educated opinions

The Law in those parts of the world whose legal traditions come from English Common, Dutch Roman or Sharia Law holds that human life is important. You can't just go killing people without a really good reason. One of the really good reasons is to prevent people from doing terrible crimes against innocent people. Exactly which crimes are so horrific as to justify killing varies from place to place, but they almost always include murder, armed robbery, arson against an occupied building, a violent invasion of your home while you are in it, rape, forcible sodomy and kidnapping.

If you reasonably believe that you or an innocent third party is in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of becoming a victim of one of these crimes you are justified in using force including deadly force to prevent it from happening.

As with everything else in the legal system it depends on the judge, the jury, how you present yourself, the officers who investigate the crime, the competence of your legal representation and the two most common types of luck - blind and dumb. But this is the theory and how the smart money bets.

So yes, sexual assaults are one of those things that justifies the use of deadly force under the law in much of the world.

II Story Hour - Disparity of Force

Another idea that's important to keep in mind is what they call "disparity of force". In English it translates to "what everyone's bringing to the party". If the attacker is bigger, stronger, better armed, known to the defender at the time to have a history of violence or special training, is enraged or on certain drugs the defender doesn't have to hold back as much as she or he might otherwise.

In general women are considered to be at a disadvantage when they have to defend themselves against men. Men are on average taller, stronger, faster runners, more experienced in fighting and have more of the wonder chemical testosterone.

The example we used to give in class was Grandma and Bubba.

Grandma has taken eighty five trips around that mean old Sun. She weighs exactly one pound sopping wet for each of those years. She's pretty spry and gets around surprisingly well with her walker.

Bubba's six foot three inch frame supports about 240 pounds of steroid-inflated muscle. He bucks hay bales for a living and pumps iron for fun. He was the front four on his high school football team.

If Grandma gets confused and tries to hit Bubba with her walker he might be justified in holding her at arm's length until she gets tired.

If Bubba attacks Grandma and she shoots him so full of holes that small birds can nest in what used to be his chest cavity the police are going to take a look. They will say "Are you alright, ma'am? Do you need a ride home? Nice groups."

III Rape

I'm not meaning to beat up on you, but there's a few dangerous misconceptions hiding in what you write. What if, you ask, a young woman uses a knife to "blunt amorous advances" from a "not-so-friendly suitor". When she tells him to stop and he continues he's not a "suitor". He's a rapist. If he doesn't immediately stop and apologize abjectly when she says "Get your mother****ing hands off me you son of a *****!" there's no doubt at all. He's a violent felon who is trying to commit a life threatening crime against her. It doesn't make it better if he knows her first name and has been in public with her a couple times. That makes it worse because of the betrayal of trust.

Stopping someone like that with deadly force falls so far inside the bounds of self defense that it shouldn't even require mentioning.

I won't argue the whole "rape is about power, not sex" thing. Rape is about the rapist sticking parts of his body into parts of a woman's body without permission. I couldn't care less about the motivations or what psychological profile he fits. Leave that to the priest and the psychiatrist. I'm concerned with "attempted rapist" and "defeated rapist" and I won't shed a tear if it means "dead rapist".

A suitor is trying to get into someone's heart or at least get an invitation into her pants. An amorous suitor is someone who loves her or thinks he loves her or wants her to love him and is trying to get into her pants. When a refusal is ignored you find out whether he's really a suitor or a just rapist who was just looking for a low-calorie way of getting his plugs cleaned.

If he's "not-so-friendly" he's not a suitor. He's a rapist.

According to volumes and volumes of research almost all rapes are committed by acquaintances. Most of them are preceeded by several minutes of conversation and increasingly personal boundary violations. Firm refusal early on can stop the situation before the rapist has invested too much in committing his crime on that particular woman at that particular time. Predators are looking for an easy dinner, not a fight.

If it gets to the point where physical resistance is required a knife is an excellent tool and can be very effective.

Legally there are some parameters, but they're pretty common sense.

"We were watching a movie together at the Octopusplex. He put his arm around me. I cut his throat," is probably a mistake

"I was at a house party and went upstairs for a few minutes. He came in, locked the door, turned the volume on the TV way up and made a grab for my boobs. I hit him. He hit me and knocked me down. I got out my knife and tried to cut off his nadgers. He called me a psycho ***** and left. Then I called the police," is probably not going to cause a woman too much trouble.

"Half a dozen drunken hockey players tried to hold me down and take turns. I kept cutting and stabbing until two of them were down and the rest were out of reach and running away. I put a tourniquet around the one bleeding from the femoral artery, then I called the police," might get her a spot in the textbooks under "justifiable use of deadly force".