So, a brown belt walks in to your school...

[JTKenpo]

Edit: (I should have read the earlier posts before writing this since it's redundant)

nope needed to be said more than once.

When I opened my school there was another school that had just recently shut down, within the previous 3 months. I had no affiliation or knowledge of the other school but as it turns out we had extremely similar curriculums. So to the point. After being open maybe 3 months a kid walks in says he's a black belt from this other guy that just closed down, he's real serious about his training and will have no problem bringing in his certificates to prove it. We talk, he knows the curriculum (by name) and moves well enough so I tell him he can wear the black belt and he will work towards his 2nd when the time comes. Well on the mats he only remembered about 1/3 of the material so I quietly pulled him aside and told him again that the requirements are the requirements, keep the black belt but your 2nd degree test will consist of everything white to 2nd degree. So he trains with me for about a year maybe a little longer, the whole time "I can't wait till I get my 2nd, my 2nd, my 2nd....." His old instructor opens up a few towns over, this gentleman gives him a call next thing you know he is promoted to 2nd and I said nice knowing you......

No matter what belt they wear some are your students for life some just until they get what they want.

 

[John Bishop]

nope needed to be said more than once.

When I opened my school there was another school that had just recently shut down, within the previous 3 months. I had no affiliation or knowledge of the other school but as it turns out we had extremely similar curriculums. So to the point. After being open maybe 3 months a kid walks in says he's a black belt from this other guy that just closed down, he's real serious about his training and will have no problem bringing in his certificates to prove it. We talk, he knows the curriculum (by name) and moves well enough so I tell him he can wear the black belt and he will work towards his 2nd when the time comes. Well on the mats he only remembered about 1/3 of the material so I quietly pulled him aside and told him again that the requirements are the requirements, keep the black belt but your 2nd degree test will consist of everything white to 2nd degree. So he trains with me for about a year maybe a little longer, the whole time "I can't wait till I get my 2nd, my 2nd, my 2nd....." His old instructor opens up a few towns over, this gentleman gives him a call next thing you know he is promoted to 2nd and I said nice knowing you......

No matter what belt they wear some are your students for life some just until they get what they want.

Sadly that's the way some students are. Their loyalty is solely based on who's promoting them at the time.

 

[KenpoDave]

Teach him.

Very nice.

I would assume that the person has come to me because they assume that I have something to teach them. Their previous rank is secondary to the fact that they have come to me for teaching. My job is to teach, and I use the beginning material to establish a baseline. Besides, the important stuff is taught in the beginning, and we all know that kenpo is like an onion, layer upon layer of information on the simplest concepts.

It is interesting to note that the people that come to me that are brown belt or under always want to know if they can "keep" their rank. Those who have made shodan or above typically don't care.

I will say this...most of the people who come to me with brown belts or below from another school/system are inferior to my students. And likewise, most that leave me find themselves inferior at other schools. Typically, these are the jump around from school to school until you find the easiest path to black belt, get black, then quit students. There are exceptions, of course. Schools close, people transfer, etc.

I try not to judge other schools/instructors/styles by their quitters. And I am not going to punish a new student of mine who achieved what was asked of him to obtain a certain rank.

 

[KenpoDave]

I am somewhat taken back by the fact that everyone chiming in is stuck on this "new" student sucking. For some odd reason you think that your school has to be better than the one they are coming from. Strange...

It has been my experience that most of the students coming from other schools are inferior to mine. Not because my school is better, not because I am a better teacher than their previous instructor, but because that is the nature of the quitter.

Again, there are exceptions, and I have had a few of those too. But typically, I get the guys who come in from somewhere else, find that my curriculum is not any easier than what they came from, and after a month or two, they move on down the street.

When I began kenpo, I was a brown belt in gojuryu. My instructor had moved to CA (about a 2600 mile drive) and I had spent two years looking for a good school. During the two years, I quit three other schools because they were not what I was looking for. I have been on both sides of the issue, and have decided after more than a few years that my job is to give my best to everyone that walks in the door, regardless of how long I have them.

 

[jarrod]

i'll share with everyone how i've dealt with a similar situation recently. i teach shingitai jujitsu & recently had a bjj blue belt join. his guard is very good, his top game is okay, & his throws were non-existent. i had him wear a white belt for about three months. once i saw that he was honestly doing his best to learn what our style has to offer i went ahead promoted him to blue under shingitai. when i promoted him i told him honestly that he would be at blue belt longer than most so that his throwing skills could catch up to his ground game. he was fine with this & proud to accept his blue belt, & i don't have a guy in a white belt destroying my green belts on the mat

jf

 

[SA_BJJ]

i'll share with everyone how i've dealt with a similar situation recently. i teach shingitai jujitsu & recently had a bjj blue belt join. his guard is very good, his top game is okay, & his throws were non-existent. i had him wear a white belt for about three months. once i saw that he was honestly doing his best to learn what our style has to offer i went ahead promoted him to blue under shingitai. when i promoted him i told him honestly that he would be at blue belt longer than most so that his throwing skills could catch up to his ground game. he was fine with this & proud to accept his blue belt, & i don't have a guy in a white belt destroying my green belts on the mat

jf

Thats good...had to test his will a little bit. People are too hung up on their belts. Let your skills and personality shine and the belts will come.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We have had that circumstance at our taekwondo dojang. One Shotokan shodan came in, put on his white belt (he brought it with him, along with his Shotokan gi), and eventually, earned his Ildan at our dojang. He has remained with us and has become a fantastic asset to our dojang.

One blue belt from another taekwondo style (ITF I believe) came in because he'd moved in from Michigan. He stayed at blue for a bit until he was comfortable with our curriculum and is preparing to test for red in January.

When we opened our Frederick dojang, we inherited a large number of students and two instructors from another dojang. All were allowed to keep their rank and simply didn't test again until they were up to speed on the curriculum. Both instructors eventually became instructors with us and both the instructors and the students have been a boon to our dojang.

We did have one gent inquire one day who had a brown belt. He asked if he would be allowed to retain it if he signed up. I told him no: we don't have a brown belt in our system, but GM Kim would be happy to evaluate his skill and knowledge of the curriculum and rank him accordingly. He had come in during kumdo, which he stayed on to watch. He said he'd be back, but I have not seen him since.

Just a few experiences that were mildly on topic.

Daniel

 

[tigdra]

We had this happen in our school but it was a 3rd degree black belt and his belt list was much smaller than ours. We first asked for a copy of his notes to see the differences in technique description and knowledge. then we tested him through all aspects (fighting, physical endurance..etc.) After that we went technique by technique and kata by kata analyzing any difference and questioning why a certain move was performed in that manner. This is something that really makes the student understand what exactly we are doing. It is easy to tell someone that is wrong do it this way, its better to see their side and offer a better solution. After that we let him join the group classes but he couldn't line up in the front with the black belt until he reached their level.

Later on we find out that he had an argument with his old teacher because he didn't want to wait 4 years for his 4th black and thought that maybe he could lie and say he had been a 3rd black for 5 years already, but we explained to him that he would still have to wait 4 years from the moment he walked into our school. He eventually quit an d decided to go back to his old teacher and wait it out.

 

[Todd Reiner]

I read these posts and the examples of stories that disturb me is this importance on rank/belts. I just do not comprehend the importance of it. (Personnaly if I start at new school I'd want to start at white.) Just goes to show what the martial arts community has become. Year by year the martial is taken away for commercialism. Higher the rank, more money, martial is lost, and the art is a memory.

I would handle the brown belt as I would any other student. Kajukenbo students would keep their belt on the blessing of the former instructor. That student (brown belt) then puts time with me. Minimum a year probably more. Former instructor gets personal updates from me on the progress of the brown belt and we decide together on the future of this student. This is the best case scenario and of course there are always variables.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I read these posts and the examples of stories that disturb me is this importance on rank/belts. I just do not comprehend the importance of it. (Personnaly if I start at new school I'd want to start at white.) Just goes to show what the martial arts community has become. Year by year the martial is taken away for commercialism. Higher the rank, more money, martial is lost, and the art is a memory.

While I agree that commercialism is rampant in MA, a student asking to retain his rank (assuming that it is the same style) is not necessarily party to that.

Just another possibility: student wishes to train at a new place for whatever reason and does not wish to pay into the colored belts all over again.

Additionally, some organizations actually tout the notion of portable rank, the Kukkiwon being one of them. If I go to another Kukkiwon school, I do expect that my Kukkiwon rank to be recognized. To be fair, I make darn sure that I'm up to speed and well practiced in the Kukkiwon curriculum so that I don't embarrass my GM and, of course, I'm not school hopping.

Personally, I am in favor of keeping the hypothetical brown belt at his or her current level until they are ready to test for the next belt. If they need to come up to speed, then so be it. I do like what others have said regarding the school's patch: no patch indicates that they got their brown belt elsewhere and until they have shown that they're up to snuff, no emblems bearing the school's name or logo.

Daniel

 

[jarrod]

I read these posts and the examples of stories that disturb me is this importance on rank/belts. I just do not comprehend the importance of it. (Personnaly if I start at new school I'd want to start at white.) Just goes to show what the martial arts community has become. Year by year the martial is taken away for commercialism. Higher the rank, more money, martial is lost, and the art is a memory.

i think it is more a matter of etiquitte than rank obsession. if you are an upper belt in one school then walk into another school as a white belt & make no mention of your experience...it may appear as if you are sharking a bit.

jf

 

[Todd Reiner]

While I agree that commercialism is rampant in MA, a student asking to retain his rank (assuming that it is the same style) is not necessarily party to that.

Just another possibility: student wishes to train at a new place for whatever reason and does not wish to pay into the colored belts all over again.

Additionally, some organizations actually tout the notion of portable rank, the Kukkiwon being one of them. If I go to another Kukkiwon school, I do expect that my Kukkiwon rank to be recognized. To be fair, I make darn sure that I'm up to speed and well practiced in the Kukkiwon curriculum so that I don't embarrass my GM and, of course, I'm not school hopping.

Personally, I am in favor of keeping the hypothetical brown belt at his or her current level until they are ready to test for the next belt. If they need to come up to speed, then so be it. I do like what others have said regarding the school's patch: no patch indicates that they got their brown belt elsewhere and until they have shown that they're up to snuff, no emblems bearing the school's name or logo.

Daniel

If a student knows the material then yes, keep the belt that was earned on. This will happen within the same lineage. If a student does not know the material then it might be appropriate for him to put on the white belt. However, as an instructor I would contact this students instructor and make a mutual decision, as well as listen to the input of the brown belt.

If I train under a different branch of Kajukenbo I would expect to start with a white belt. How can I wear a black belt when the color belts know more of the curriculum than I do? Once again this is a decision of the instructor, not the student.

Regarding paying into the color belts all over again, would that brown belt not have to pay monthly dues anyways just to catch up? The brown belt would/should also learn the material at the quick pace and advance quicker than normal. So the time to learn and advance through belts should be the same as if he just stayed as a brown belt. His out of pocket expense should be close to the same.

 

[Todd Reiner]

i think it is more a matter of etiquitte than rank obsession. if you are an upper belt in one school then walk into another school as a white belt & make no mention of your experience...it may appear as if you are sharking a bit.

jf

Agreed, but where in my statement did I advocate not telling the instructor? A student had better tell me any experience they may have had.

Is it proper etiquette for a student to retain thier belt when moving from one school to another? Same lineage yes. Different lineage I discuss with previous instructor.

Another option is student wears no belt until they catch up.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If a student knows the material then yes, keep the belt that was earned on. This will happen within the same lineage. If a student does not know the material then it might be appropriate for him to put on the white belt. However, as an instructor I would contact this students instructor and make a mutual decision, as well as listen to the input of the brown belt.

If I train under a different branch of Kajukenbo I would expect to start with a white belt. How can I wear a black belt when the color belts know more of the curriculum than I do? Once again this is a decision of the instructor, not the student.

Totally agree. If the organization and/or curriculum is different, anyone should expect to start at white belt.

Regarding paying into the color belts all over again, would that brown belt not have to pay monthly dues anyways just to catch up? The brown belt would/should also learn the material at the quick pace and advance quicker than normal. So the time to learn and advance through belts should be the same as if he just stayed as a brown belt. His out of pocket expense should be close to the same.

Well, dues are one thing, but in some systems, you can pay literally hundreds in colored belt testings, which is the result of the commercialism.

There isn't a taekwondo school in my area that has fewer than ten belts, and most have twelve, including black. Generally, testing fees begin at around twenty to thirty dollars and get progressively higher, until you get to the last four belts before black, which are generall over fifty a piece, going up to a hundred a pop for the last couple.

Now, if the new schools says simply, learn the curriculum and wear the appropriate colored belt that you already own, then I'd say that the student should respect that, as it is gouging no cash from him or her.

And thank you for your reply.

Daniel

 

[Todd Reiner]

Totally agree. If the organization and/or curriculum is different, anyone should expect to start at white belt.


Well, dues are one thing, but in some systems, you can pay literally hundreds in colored belt testings, which is the result of the commercialism.

There isn't a taekwondo school in my area that has fewer than ten belts, and most have twelve, including black. Generally, testing fees begin at around twenty to thirty dollars and get progressively higher, until you get to the last four belts before black, which are generall over fifty a piece, going up to a hundred a pop for the last couple.

Now, if the new schools says simply, learn the curriculum and wear the appropriate colored belt that you already own, then I'd say that the student should respect that, as it is gouging no cash from him or her.

And thank you for your reply.

Daniel

Wow, that can add up, I can see now why some may wanna keep their belt due to finances. Thanks for explaining.

 

[jarrod]

Agreed, but where in my statement did I advocate not telling the instructor? A student had better tell me any experience they may have had.

Is it proper etiquette for a student to retain thier belt when moving from one school to another? Same lineage yes. Different lineage I discuss with previous instructor.

Another option is student wears no belt until they catch up.

i wasn't arguing with you my man, just pointing something out that hadn't come up yet.

for my school at least, there are far, far too many variables to have a strict policy about the transfer of rank. as an instructor, i don't want to hand out rank to every ranking jujitsuka or judoka who spends a week at my gym. on the other hand, i don't want someone wearing a white belt beating up on my colored belts for months & months because i'm too stingy to give him rank.

jf

 

[Kenpo17]

I would first greet him/her. Once on the mat with the other brown belts, I would just work slower with him, maybe give my normal students to another instructor while I try to work through the form or technique with the new student. I would know this since we have new students who come into our studio already with a green, brown, and in a few cases black belts, and we do exactly what I just mentioned.