Slashing with knives vs stabbing

[lonewolf12563]

Recently I was criticized by a few about my lack of knowlege in CQC. Just to prove my point that I was making early this is a section from a document from Forensic Med lab in the UK. http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/incised_wounds.htm

The slashing type attacks that are taught in several martial arts is just nonscence in a real high threat situations. The slashing does not effectively take out your opponent. That is why they say expect to get cut. Because you will if you dance around defanging the snake or what ever.

Your only option in a life or death situation is to drop your attacker as fast as possible. To do this you must stab. Stab and continualy hit vital targets. Even this is not guarenteed to drop your opponent right away.

I know you will say that you do not want to kill your attacker only defend yourself. Well if you carry a knife sorry then you are kidding your self. If you do not kill your attacker than he will you. Probably with your knife. It is very hard to actually stab someone. It is not the same as your dojo class sparring. Most people can not handle it when is for real. They freeze or thier flight instinct kicks in. You have to have a certain mindset to actually stab and kill someone. It deals with a lot of psychology. There are books on this that cover this better than I can explain.
So when you join your local club and train all these fancyful knife techniques and sparring back and forth becoming a " knife fighter", just know it doesn't go down like that when it is for real. And all those sweeping slashes, largo mano ect go right out the door.

Ed

 

[Flatlander]

I think its good that you have found a technique that you feel confident with, but I wouldn't bee to hasty in dismissing the value of a slash. There are not too many ways to use a knife, though there are a myriad of different motions. Whether or not a stab or a slash is a better "killer" isn't as important as continuing to train with a knife. The fact is most knife techniques translate to empty hand or other blunt object movements, and I wouldn't want to limit training to punches only, because they tend to "hurt" more than any other hand technique, or whatever. Why limit yourself at all? Just keep training.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ya know Ed...

I would have to agree with some of what you said... I would think that certain stabbing techniques would be far more effective IN MOST CASES than a slashing attack... but that is not to say slashing attacks do not have their place. However I would think slashing a guy in, say, a heavy down coat, or stiff leather one would be pretty ineffective, unless you were armed with something RAZOR sharp, like say, a straight razor. But I also recently read about a guy who had his carotid (?) artery slashed open by a guy with a box cutter, and he is now 6 feet under.

So honestly, I think that saying "Only Stabbing" is valid, or "Only Slashing" is valid are both ignorant viewpoints. Combat is dynamic, not static, and EVERY SINGLE SITUATION is different. I would have more expectation of stopping an opponent with a stab than a slash, but that doesn't mean I wont slash if the opportunity is there.

 

[Bester]

How many knife fights have you been in?

How many people have you killed with your special techniques?

Sure, a stab is more lethal...the Romans knew that.

But the majority of injuries caused by an edged weapon are -SLASHES-.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1341852003


Of course, I'm interested in what your fantasy-world training would say to the statement "Disarms can get you killed"?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/articles/CT_Edged_Weapons.htm

 

[Touch Of Death]

Slashing is not an inferior fighting method. Consider flaying your attacker's punching arm lenthwise on the way to his throat, and then pulling the blade through a clavical. He's dead and you never once stabbed him. :asian:

 

[lonewolf12563]

Explain to me how you are going to sever the clavical artery with out stabbing? ED

 

[Baytor]

Slashing and stabbing both have their place. It all depends on the opening you have been given. You have to be able to adapt to the circumstances.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Its going to depend on what blade you choose, but lets choose the choose a basic Military anti-personel Knife.
Sean

 

[lonewolf12563]

Ok...but how are you going to sever the clavical artery. Ed

 

[Gary Crawford]

If the purpose of a stab is to kill(and should always be),one should twist the knife during exit,making sure the most damage as possible is done.Anytime a stab is used,it should only be done for killing purposes.This is what I teach to my counter-terrorism students.If the purpose is self defense,slashing is best,it's faster and harder to defend against and usualy non-lethal.

 

[loki09789]

If the purpose of a stab is to kill(and should always be),one should twist the knife during exit,making sure the most damage as possible is done.Anytime a stab is used,it should only be done for killing purposes.This is what I teach to my counter-terrorism students.If the purpose is self defense,slashing is best,it's faster and harder to defend against and usualy non-lethal.

From an FMArtists POV a stab/thrust is the same as a punching motion and a slashing motion is the same as a backfist/shuto/hammerfist motion. The only difference is the tool applied NOT the direction or the delivery system.
That said, is the only worthwhile technique the punch or heel hand strike? Is a roundhouse kick or a knife hand motion/cat's paw heel hand striking motion a waist of time to practice? If the side kick proved to be the most powerful kick of the possible choices does that mean I only practice that one?

The point of training, for me as a self defense artist, with and against knives is so that I have a foundation of mechanical skills and the tactical sense to be able to use what ever may come my way - and defend against things that come against me.

If all I know how to do well with a blade is stab and I am offered the chance to use a thick spined, broad bladed knife more suited to slashing applications by virtue of the weight and engineering of the weapon then I am just as 'up a creek' as if I never handled a firearm before, but it was the best weapon in the moment to stop an attacker.

Learn the difference between a 'desparation slash' and a pressure cut/draw cut/fillet cut and then talk to me about how much slashing is a waste. I have used knives to butcher and gut game and am a firm believer that a well executed Slash (different from hacking back and forth in the air, hoping to strike a body as if it were a stick strike) can be VERY deadly.

Better still get your hands on 'Surviving Edged weapons' by Paladin press. The personal accounts, ME pictures may put knives in general into perspective. Notice the difference in style and movement between Leo Gahe's FMA style and the Inmate "Shank-do" style. The inmates are training to use improvised weapons that are crude. They are ONLY designed and engineered for stabbing.

Be careful of statistics too. Just because the most common strike used (therefore the most recorded 'killing' strike) with an edged weapon is the stab/thrust doesn't mean it is the 'best' just the one that comes most naturally to a bunch of minimally/untrained masses who decide to attack each other. This tunnel vision perception of statistics is what leads to the myth that owners of red cars will get more tickets than owners of other colors. If you realize that the highest percentage of car color is red, it only means that if you increase the number of red cars it will directly lead to an increase in red car tickets - then you can keep things in perspective.

Still rather have a stick or a gun myself.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Explain to me how you are going to sever the clavical artery with out stabbing? ED

Give me a quality knife and I can chop through any bone you got; so, to answer your question, I will stad with the edge of the blade.
Sean

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok...but how are you going to sever the clavical artery. Ed

To sever the Clavical artery requires a thrust.

You can however sever carotid artery, jugular vein, femeral artery and many other major vessles with a slash.

There is a reason the Romans used a thrust.
There is also a reason why the Samurai used a weapon and developed a style based on the slash.


BTW: anyone have a good map of major blood vessles? The best I could find was http://www.mythos.com/webmd/Content.aspx?P=CIRCA1&E=40#

 

[someguy]

A slash can be effective. A large number of swords show this. Scimatar,claymore, any really big sword. Stabing works well aswell. Rapiars are good exmples. Better even is an axe and a spear. Both have a time and a place.
Knives I suppose are differnt as they don't have as much weight behind them. I'll leave that up to the people who play with them alot to decide.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ed,
The point of both the pistol defense and later on with this silly knife defense is "control the weapon" or "don't control the weapon". The very doctrine you seem to be a proponent of, US Army Combatives clearly advocates "Control the weapon". http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/ch8.htm#sec2

An uncontrolled knife can slash or thrust. Both can kill. The folks on the airplanes on 9/11 were killed by having their throats slashed with box cutters.

Now daggers, not sharpened screwdrivers, not pencils.

Box Cutters. A tool which every stockboy is familiar with, and any one of them will verify it ain't a thrusting weapon.

Again, you're ideas seem to lack any real-world credibility.

 

[lonewolf12563]

The reason why the stewardest was killed with the box cutter is because she just lyed there. No one help her because of fear. It is not proven that she died before the crash into the tower either. All you have is passenger phone calls. Look at Nick Berg. Took a while to cut his head off. And that was with a small sword.
Controlling the knife, have fun, and controlling the gun, pistol rifle are too different animals. Different dynamics.
Touch of death you are living in sword fantasy land you have no clue about knives. Yes Kaith a stab is what severs the clavicle artery.
The reason why the Romans stabbed is because they knew that they could survive a hack, slash. They knew they could kill their adversay with a thrust. This was with a sword! We are talking a bout a small blade. Knives and swords are not the same. They work differently. When an inmate makes a shank it is usually a stabbing spike. Why, because they know it kills. Slashing does not.
Gary, if you pull a knife especially in anti terroist situations, you better be prepared to kill your adversary. Anything else is rediculous. You actually train special ops people to do defensive cuts? That is a joke. Or are they civilians. Maybe I miss understood your statement. Yes I agree slashing is usually non-lethal. Do you train military or civilians?, just to clarify for me.
Twisting the blade is mainly used to get your knife out if it gets stuck. But yes you can twist the blade for maximum effect if you have controll over your target. And usually that is on the ground. Otherwise you are stabbing and hitting your target until he goes down. Usually you have already taken him down before you kill him anyways. Teaching some anti terror student defensive cuts will get them killed. Dealing with terrorist or any other determined attacker, is very violent, brutal, unlike anything you have seen or experience. I hope you never do.
Kaith since your only experience with the army is FM 21-150, which if you look is very basic, I can ensure you we do it much better than that. Ed

 

[Stick Dummy]

:barf:
:barf:
:barf:



What style did you say you studied?

Have you ever actually stabbed someone?

Have you contemplated the preliminary slash being to sever muscle groups, tendons, ligaments, etc. as a "gateway' to secondary targets?

Maybe this one needs to be moved to Horror Stories as well.............

 

[Baytor]

I thought the Romans used stabbing so they could keep in tight ranks and work more as a compact unit. If they were to slash, they would have to open their ranks, which would expose them more. If I remember right, they stayed close togather so they would shield each other. Also, it let them train less on the stabbing and more on moving togather as a unit.
I'm not a historian...I will have to double check that.

 

[lonewolf12563]

When you do your reaserch you will find that when using the Gladius, the Roman solider did not hack at the enemy as this would of made him vunerable to attack on the exposed parts of his body. Instead he was trained to stab at the enemy in a very fast back and forth motion. This was most effective as it meant for a faster rate of attack.
Roman soliders would wait for the enemy to close, smash thier shileds into them , as a weapon, then thrust their gladius into the bodies of the enemy. The sword was thrusted side ways to penetrate the rib cage and the vital organs.
Of couse not every culture fought like this as evedence by the swords they developed. But even the Europeans valued the effectiveness of the thrust as evident by their sword and dagger designs. They knew how to dispatch someone quickly. Why do you think that daggers and stilletto switchblades are illegal and regular knives are not. No politics here. Because they are perfect weapons for what they are ment for. Killing. Defense is the response to an attack. Offense is the attack it self. In a defensive system you are already behind because you are responding to the attackers input. It is very hard to regain the offense when put in a defensive posture. This is where most MA fail. They fail because they are not realistic in their training and approach. Most are sports with rules and some like Philipine knife arts are base on that cultures need to develope a means to protect it's self using the available tools ie Bolo machete ,moro barong ect. Then after being conquered by christianity those skills were changed into sport. The skill you learn in most of these knife arts are based on sword play. The knive and sword are very different in characteristics. The Eurpoeans knew this and developed some of the great daggers ever seen. We even knew this in our own civil war our bayonets were spikes. Why because stabbing kills faster than slashing. Yes I do belive you can use a slash as an entry to a stab, but realiance on this technique is not the best course of action. Remember also most of these knife arts have you start in stances and do footwork, male-female triangle. Again based on sword work.
Study these arts for their artistic value...but for real life situations you are kidding yourself if you rely on them. The one thing I was taught in the military is the understand how each weapon system I used performed and how the human body works and how you shut it down fast. None of these moves used "defanging the snake". Ed