Simultaneous strikes

[Kung Fu Wang]

You know, pushes can be effective crowd control against multiple opponents.

You can push your opponent

- off the cliff.
- into heavy traffic.
- ...

But old saying said, "You should keep your friend close but your enemy closer."

 

[TSDTexan]

You can push your opponent

- off the cliff.
- into heavy traffic.
- ...

But old saying said, "You should keep your friend close but your enemy closer."

push em into the path of a subway car, off the platform.

 

[DaveB]

Usually the simultaneous strikes in Shotokan kata are applied with one strike landing and the other attacking their attack.

Occasionally we also have the distraction strike and real strike idea.

Both work fine.

 

[skribs]

@TSDTexan @Kung Fu Wang @_Simon_

Last time I did sparring against multiple opponents, when I got tired half my moves were just to push someone. Usually I would push one of them and they would be knocked back into the other. Granted, there were 5 of them, so they were clumped together pretty well. And also they were all about half my weight or less, so I had that advantage as well....

Usually the simultaneous strikes in Shotokan kata are applied with one strike landing and the other attacking their attack.

Occasionally we also have the distraction strike and real strike idea.

Both work fine.

We do plenty of simultaneous blocks and strikes in our school, but when we do it's clear that one is a block and one is a strike.

Fakes usually are timed a little bit apart, but I can see using multiple motions and only putting power into one.

 

[DaveB]

@TSDTexan @Kung Fu Wang @_Simon_

Last time I did sparring against multiple opponents, when I got tired half my moves were just to push someone. Usually I would push one of them and they would be knocked back into the other. Granted, there were 5 of them, so they were clumped together pretty well. And also they were all about half my weight or less, so I had that advantage as well....



We do plenty of simultaneous blocks and strikes in our school, but when we do it's clear that one is a block and one is a strike.

Fakes usually are timed a little bit apart, but I can see using multiple motions and only putting power into one.

Sometimes the power is in the faint in order to sell it as a threat while using less power to hit a more sensitive target.

A double strike is more like a limb destruction and strike rather than a block and strike.

 

[skribs]

Sometimes the power is in the faint in order to sell it as a threat while using less power to hit a more sensitive target.

A double strike is more like a limb destruction and strike rather than a block and strike.

I can see that. I like to Kiyhap really loud as a feint sometimes to set them off balance and then go in. If you do it rarely, it works every time.

 

[TSDTexan]

Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.

 

[DaveB]

Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.

That's a pretty good interpretation.

The dumping throw is a common enough application but I've not seen it from a clinch before.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.

This s the issue when you try to map the form into application, instead of try to create form from application.

If we talk about that application in this clip, the moment that you pick up your opponent's left leg by your left arm, The moment you should use your right arm to push on your opponent's neck and take him down.

To punch your opponent's head and then take him down is not necessary. You may lose your chance to take him down. You will have plenty time to punch your opponent after you have taken him down on to the ground.

If you create your form from this application, your right hand won't be a punch to the north motion, but a push to the east motion.

 

[skribs]

This s the issue when you try to map the form into application, instead of try to create form from application.

If we talk about that application in this clip, the moment that you pick up your opponent's left leg by your left arm, The moment you should use your right arm to push on your opponent's neck and take him down.

To punch your opponent's head and then take him down is not necessary. You may lose your chance to take him down. You will have plenty time to punch your opponent after you have taken him down on to the ground.

If you create your form from this application, your right hand won't be a punch to the north motion, but a push to the east motion.

This is why in the threads I've been making (mostly in the TKD section), I've been focusing on what I'm calling the primary application of a movement. I easily see how the double-punch here could be a high block and underpunch/uppercut. Or an outside block and a strange punch to the nose. I can also see it preparing for a Figure 4 wristlock.

But as it's called a double punch, I want to understand it as a double punch.

 

[DaveB]

This is why in the threads I've been making (mostly in the TKD section), I've been focusing on what I'm calling the primary application of a movement. I easily see how the double-punch here could be a high block and underpunch/uppercut. Or an outside block and a strange punch to the nose. I can also see it preparing for a Figure 4 wristlock.

But as it's called a double punch, I want to understand it as a double punch.

Would you drink bleach because it is labelled water?

 

[skribs]

Would you drink bleach because it is labelled water?

I have no sense of smell, so quite possibly yes.

 

[TSDTexan]

This s the issue when you try to map the form into application, instead of try to create form from application.

If we talk about that application in this clip, the moment that you pick up your opponent's left leg by your left arm, The moment you should use your right arm to push on your opponent's neck and take him down.

To punch your opponent's head and then take him down is not necessary. You may lose your chance to take him down. You will have plenty time to punch your opponent after you have taken him down on to the ground.

If you create your form from this application, your right hand won't be a punch to the north motion, but a push to the east motion.

A common staple for takedowns is atemi waza. This is a theme in Karate jitsu, as well as many other Asian MA. It has the effect of pain, and misdirection.

Here is atemi waza blended in judo.

There are many quotes of the old masters coaching us to strike just before a throw.

You say that
"To punch your opponent's head and then take him down is not necessary. You may lose your chance to take him down."

I say, while it may not be 100% necessary, it is certainly be beneficial. and if this has been drilled until it is a core reflexive action it won't hinder, but greatly aid. I greatly doubt that I will lose my takedown for having boxed him in the temple or jaw or ear.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are many quotes of the old masters coaching us to strike just before a throw.

It depends on whether your strike will be

1. part of the throw,
2. set up for the throw, or
3. counter-productive to the throw.

IMO, it's 3 in that clip. His punch will make his grab much harder if his opponent tries to deal with his punch.

When you

- throw, you want to be in clinching range.
- punch, you want to be in punching range.

Since sometime when your opponent dodges your punch, he may move outside of your punching range and away from your clinching range.

In that clip, his right hand tries to punch his opponent's head, and then tries to grab his upper collar. That punch can cause his grab to be difficult.

But if he integrates punch and throw as one move, use his right arm to push on his opponent's throat, that will be 1 move instead of 2 moves.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.

That application depends greatly on the opponent not doing his job properly with the head control and knees.

Once the knee is blocked, the attacker should be putting his foot right back down on the ground and not leaving his leg up to be scooped. Generally, to be successful in catching the leg on a knee strike you need to make the knee miss so that it continues moving up.

The demo starts with the attacker already having compromised the defender's posture and structure by bending his head down. Once the attacker has that advantage, he should not give it up easily. If he continues breaking the defender's balance, structure, and posture, then the odds of the defender landing an effective head punch or scoop and throw are very poor. The defender's first priority (other than defending the knees) is to regain his posture.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That application depends greatly on the opponent not doing his job properly with the head control and knees.

Old saying said,

- If you can have full control on my head, I'm not a good wrestler.
- If I can't have full control on your head, I'm not a good wrestler.

Which one is right and which one is wrong?

We train single leg against MT clinch and knee strike all the time. Will a MT guy kill a wrestler with his knee strike, or will a wrestler take that MT guy down with his single leg? That depends on that MT guy's skill against the other wrestler's skill.

 

[TSDTexan]

It depends on whether your strike will be

- part of the throw,
- set up for the throw, or
- counter-productive to the throw.

When you

- throw, you want to be in clinching range.
- punch, you want to be in punching range.

Since sometime when your opponent dodges your punch, he may move outside of your punching range and away from your clinching range.

In that clip, his right hand tries to punch his opponent's head, and then tries to grab his upper collar. That punch can cause his grab to be difficult.

But if he integrates punch and throw as one move, use his right arm to push on his opponent's throat, that will be 1 move instead of 2 moves.

in Okinawan karate, punching range is/or starts at clenching distance.

As often contrasted with Japanese Shotokan. Okinawan Karate is an infighting art and always has been.

Often times, we seem to see karate taught as Block, then Punch.
This is a kyu level thing.

As time goes by we learn that block and punch were always simultaneously executed, and that the separate block punch was a training method to bootstrap a student through striking fundamentals.

There is a lot of implied and assumed information. The strike to the face shows us the speed needed for entry and seizing of the collar. The strike to the head/face is a misdirection.

And yes it is a 2 for 1 deal.
a very common theme.

The collar grab is essential, it sets up the endgame position after you have the opponent halfway to the collar choke.

Successfully ringing his bell before the sweep ensues a higher chance of getting that second hand into the collar.

Otherwise, you might damage your hand punching him repeatedly, with his head on the ground.

 

[skribs]

Often times, we seem to see karate taught as Block, then Punch.
This is a kyu level thing.

As time goes by we learn that block and punch were always simultaneously executed, and that the separate block punch was a training method to bootstrap a student through striking fundamentals.

There is a lot of implied and assumed information. The strike to the face shows us the speed needed for entry and seizing of the collar. The strike to the is a misdirection. And yes it is a 2 for 1 deal.
a very common theme.

I like all of this. The bolded part is something I had not considered before.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The strike to the face shows us the speed needed for entry and seizing of the collar. .

The question is do you really need to "seize the collar" in order to finish that take down? IMO, that collar seizing is not necessary. A simple neck push will be good enough to take your opponent down after you have picked his leading leg.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have issue with this head control. You use both hands to control your opponent's head while give him 2 free arms. His 2 free arms can do a lot of things on you.

Here is a simple math.

If you use

1. both arms to control my both arms, I will have 0 free arm.
2. one arm to control one of my arms, use another arm to control my head, I will have 1 free arm.
3. both arms to control my head, I will have 2 free arms.

IMO, 1 > 2 > 3.