Simultaneous strikes

[TSDTexan]

I haven’t read every state’s SD laws. Not even close. But of the several I’ve read, not once have I seen anything resembling who struck first. It’s a decent rule of thumb at best, especially with kids, but not much more than that. I’d be shocked to see someone get convicted of assault solely because they threw the first punch.

I can see it now...
“But your honor, he was running straight at me with a knife”

“But did you throw the first punch?”

“Well, yeah. I wasn’t going to let him stab me first.”

“Guilty!”

Welcome to Murica!

 

[JR 137]

Welcome to Murica!

I figured only New York State was this stupid. We all want to be left the hell alone, yet everyone wants to tell everyone else how to run their lives and pass laws to enforce it.

 

[TSDTexan]

I figured only New York State was this stupid. We all want to be left the hell alone, yet everyone wants to tell everyone else how to run their lives and pass laws to enforce it.

Well, the progressive postmodernists have been pushing this victim mentality/class warfare crap for so long that we have lost the rugged individual mindset.

We are super offended over anything these days.
This turf fighting has only served to divide the greatest nation on the planet into tribal groups.
we are no longer "we the people." we are "we the oppressed".

And the only one who wins are those who set up the "divide and conquer" scam.

So we need more and more laws to make us free.

Irony.

 

[Anarax]

But not every jurisdiction treats swinging first as a valid defense claim.

I agree with you, and in his writing G.F. has advocated for preemptive attack under certain circumstances.

But some places striking the pimp first, would get the karate guy arrested.

I agree that the Karateka in the video could have possibly faced charges if in certain jurisdictions given the Pimp didn't rear his hand back in an attack preparation. However, rearing your fist back in preparation for attack is assault even without making contact. That's why the terms assault and battery are usually put together, thus in a lot of cases you don't have to wait to get hit before responding if their attack has already started. Though I understand your point that the laws on the books and how it's enforced don't always correlate.

 

[dvcochran]

I haven’t read every state’s SD laws. Not even close. But of the several I’ve read, not once have I seen anything resembling who struck first. It’s a decent rule of thumb at best, especially with kids, but not much more than that. I’d be shocked to see someone get convicted of assault solely because they threw the first punch.

I can see it now...
“But your honor, he was running straight at me with a knife”

“But did you throw the first punch?”

“Well, yeah. I wasn’t going to let him stab me first.”

“Guilty!”

I agree, it the assailant has a weapon in hand surely there would be no question about who strikes first. In TN at least, there is verbiage about an immanent threat that has to be proven. As long as you can prove you or someone near you is in danger you have a good case even if you throw the first punch. In this day and age of everything being on video, that can help you or hurt you. Most LE know the quicker you can diffuse a situation the less physical things get even when the video shows otherwise. The layperson doesn't understand what would usually happen if a violent situation is allowed to extend because someone wants to be "nice".

 

[skribs]

I agree, it the assailant has a weapon in hand surely there would be no question about who strikes first. In TN at least, there is verbiage about an immanent threat that has to be proven. As long as you can prove you or someone near you is in danger you have a good case even if you throw the first punch. In this day and age of everything being on video, that can help you or hurt you. Most LE know the quicker you can diffuse a situation the less physical things get even when the video shows otherwise. The layperson doesn't understand what would usually happen if a violent situation is allowed to extend because someone wants to be "nice".

The problem with everything being on video is you have someone harassing a police officer for 20 minutes throwing things at him and when he's finally had enough rocks and garbage thrown at him and pepper sprays them, the only thing that the public sees is the 10 seconds where he defends himself.

 

[Danny T]

I agree, it the assailant has a weapon in hand surely there would be no question about who strikes first. In TN at least, there is verbiage about an immanent threat that has to be proven. As long as you can prove you or someone near you is in danger you have a good case even if you throw the first punch. In this day and age of everything being on video, that can help you or hurt you. Most LE know the quicker you can diffuse a situation the less physical things get even when the video shows otherwise. The layperson doesn't understand what would usually happen if a violent situation is allowed to extend because someone wants to be "nice".

We don't know everything that happen but what is shown.
There is an explanation which stated the other man was "hitting one of his girls". It was going on long enough for the instructor to view it and walk down the stairs, cross the street, and to confront the situation verbally. He then walks away. The attacker has shown the propensity to hit others and we don't know what is being said to the defender but I'm certain he wasn't discussing how much he enjoyed meeting him. His previous actions and immediate actions as he approaches along with his verbally discussion of affinity toward the guy presents an immediate threat of physical bodily injury.

As to the no first strike argument the pimp had already thrown several. The defender threw the 'last' strike not the first.

 

[geezer]

By adding a hand pulling, the short distance knee kick and face punch can work well.

Getting back to the OP's question regarding simultaneous double strikes, Yes, in Wing Chun simultaneous double strikes, and even triple strikes, are often demonstrated as illustrations of the style's well known emphasis on efficiency. So, the theory goes, two or even three strikes landing at the same time gives you more bang for the buck, right?

...er No. I'm with Tony on this one. When working against a resisting opponent we all quickly learn that it is hard enough to land a single solid hit at a time, regardless of style, and as Tony stated before, when you do land a hit, it is easier to focus your force into a single strike than to split it between two or more strikes.

So, in the beautifully posed demo picture above, we see a punch and kick hitting at the same moment and it seems very efficient. And indeed there is a very similar movement is found in the Dummy Form. Nevertheless, in reality, rather than a punch, a double lap-sau (grappling-hand) and kick would be a higher percentage move than this simultaneous lap-da (punch-hit) and front kick. IMO this stuff is just for coordination training and for show.

Here's a photo of the late GM Yip Man posing a technique that makes more sense to me ande similar to the one I referred to above: Com-na jeet gherk (a double lap or grapple and shin kick).
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/ea/0e/dcea0e81b38fdd5335a96ff8c3ee79d9.jpg

Interestingly, there are a few double punch or double palm movements that are quite powerful and useful in very specific situations, especially some self defense scenarios, but I would say they are the "exceptions that prove the rule".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here's a photo of the late GM Yip Man posing a technique that makes more sense to me ande similar to the one I referred to above: Com-na jeet gherk (a double lap or grapple and shin kick).
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/ea/0e/dcea0e81b38fdd5335a96ff8c3ee79d9.jpg

Believe it or not, during the 1st day of my high school long fist class, I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" (How many 14 years old ever challenged his MA teacher during the 1st day?) He said, "come and punch me." I punched at him. he grabbed my punching arm with both hands with one hand on my elbow joint and one hand on my wrist joint (as showing in this picture). He then put his foot on my leading leg knee. My punching momentum made me to move forward but since my knee was blocked, I fell forward. That was the 1st throw that I have learned in my life (long before I even started my Chinese wrestling training).

In CMA, it's called 搂臂迎门踢 (Lou Bei Ying Men Ti) - arm pulling front door kick.

[/QUOTE]

 

[JR 137]

Update on attempting simultaneous strikes...

So I said I’d try double punches in sparring. I finally got a chance to spar with a few adults at various levels. I’m a 2nd kyu (brown belt), and tonight I sparred a few rounds each with two 3rd kyus, two 3rd dans, and a 4th dan. I tried double punches at least once on everyone, and a few times on some. I tried double punches were my fists were side by side, and double punches where one fist was up a face level and the other was at stomach level. Straight on and at angles.

I was 0 for however many I threw. Most common response was a roundhouse kick to my head by the higher ranks. Next common response was a punch to my head. And a few front kicks to my stomach.

Actually, the most common response was a look like “what the hell are you thinking?” as that happened practically every time, regardless of rank.

I’ll try it out on two specific teenage kids when I get a chance. They’re good for that stuff.

I’ll keep trying and report back. Now back to our regularly scheduled drifting of the thread...

 

[skribs]

Update on attempting simultaneous strikes...

So I said I’d try double punches in sparring. I finally got a chance to spar with a few adults at various levels. I’m a 2nd kyu (brown belt), and tonight I sparred a few rounds each with two 3rd kyus, two 3rd dans, and a 4th dan. I tried double punches at least once on everyone, and a few times on some. I tried double punches were my fists were side by side, and double punches where one fist was up a face level and the other was at stomach level. Straight on and at angles.

I was 0 for however many I threw. Most common response was a roundhouse kick to my head by the higher ranks. Next common response was a punch to my head. And a few front kicks to my stomach.

Actually, the most common response was a look like “what the hell are you thinking?” as that happened practically every time, regardless of rank.

I’ll try it out on two specific teenage kids when I get a chance. They’re good for that stuff.

I’ll keep trying and report back. Now back to our regularly scheduled drifting of the thread...

I find it surprising that you didn't land any. If anything, I'd think that a bigger chance to land would be a pro of a double attack.

I'd play around with it in my sparring, except we do Olympic-style TKD sparring, which punches to the face are off limits, and double punches are usually seen as a push, which is off-limits.

 

[JR 137]

I find it surprising that you didn't land any. If anything, I'd think that a bigger chance to land would be a pro of a double attack.

I'd play around with it in my sparring, except we do Olympic-style TKD sparring, which punches to the face are off limits, and double punches are usually seen as a push, which is off-limits.

We don’t punch the face either. Hard to describe, but I made the motion towards the face, kind of like a jab fake. I typically try to throw face punches and land them at the very top of the sternum/chest; basically aim for the jam and come down at the last second. Sounds stupid written, it seeing it would be very obvious.

I also tried punching the top of the sternum and stomach simultaneously. I had to get pretty close, and a few times it did look and feel more like a close-handed push than a punch.

In all fairness, I was trying too hard to make something work. If I play around with it and give it some time to become something I’m not forcing, it may actually become semi-effective. I’ll play with it a bit more, but I’m not too convinced right now that it’s really worth putting in a lot of effort.

 

[Danny T]

We don’t punch the face either. Hard to describe, but I made the motion towards the face, kind of like a jab fake. I typically try to throw face punches and land them at the very top of the sternum/chest; basically aim for the jam and come down at the last second. Sounds stupid written, it seeing it would be very obvious.

I also tried punching the top of the sternum and stomach simultaneously. I had to get pretty close, and a few times it did look and feel more like a close-handed push than a punch.

In all fairness, I was trying too hard to make something work. If I play around with it and give it some time to become something I’m not forcing, it may actually become semi-effective. I’ll play with it a bit more, but I’m not too convinced right now that it’s really worth putting in a lot of effort.

Do you do any clinching within your sparring? If you don't allow clinching, inside fighting, or standing grappling/seizing then a lot of what is shown within forms will never make sense.

 

[JR 137]

Do you do any clinching within your sparring? If you don't allow clinching, inside fighting, or standing grappling/seizing then a lot of what is shown within forms will never make sense.

We don’t do much of that during free-sparring. That’s really my main criticism. We do plenty of it during partner work, drills, prearranged sparring type stuff, etc.

And I agree it would be far more effective and sense-making (is that a word?) in that context. I was just trying it in a very superficial face value kind of way.

 

[TSDTexan]

Do you do any clinching within your sparring? If you don't allow clinching, inside fighting, or standing grappling/seizing then a lot of what is shown within forms will never make sense.

How absolutely true Danny.

This is an example of what my studies on karate has led me to. Note... this is not my video but reflected values and principles in Te that I have found on my journey. Thank God for researchers in organizations like the IRKRS. And 95 % what's in this video is in the kata that I know.

The other issue is kata drift and stylistic changes that have been made to look pretty in competition that have become disconnected from the older applications and drills, and have to reinvent the wheel to make new bunkai fit.

 

[TSDTexan]

.

 

[_Simon_]

Update on attempting simultaneous strikes...

So I said I’d try double punches in sparring. I finally got a chance to spar with a few adults at various levels. I’m a 2nd kyu (brown belt), and tonight I sparred a few rounds each with two 3rd kyus, two 3rd dans, and a 4th dan. I tried double punches at least once on everyone, and a few times on some. I tried double punches were my fists were side by side, and double punches where one fist was up a face level and the other was at stomach level. Straight on and at angles.

I was 0 for however many I threw. Most common response was a roundhouse kick to my head by the higher ranks. Next common response was a punch to my head. And a few front kicks to my stomach.

Actually, the most common response was a look like “what the hell are you thinking?” as that happened practically every time, regardless of rank.

I’ll try it out on two specific teenage kids when I get a chance. They’re good for that stuff.

I’ll keep trying and report back. Now back to our regularly scheduled drifting of the thread...

Ooooh! Ooooh! I've tried double punches in sparring before!

Not sure how effective they were, a few times I tried one higher one lower, and also next to each other (morote tsuki). Couldn't get much power and they felt more like a push but I did land them, it would be fun to experiment more. And I'm sure one could really get some power into them if you move forward and put your whole body into it.

I also did a double punch during my 4th Kyu grading, but at the time I was mostly delirious and just beyond gone (that grading is a particularly significant and incredibly challenging one...)

 

[Danny T]

How absolutely true Danny.

This is an example of what my studies on karate has led me to. Note... this is not my video but reflected values and principles in Te that I have found on my journey. Thank God for researchers in organizations like the IRKRS. And 95 % what's in this video is in the kata that I know.

The other issue is kata drift and stylistic changes that have been made to look pretty in competition that have become disconnected from the older applications and drills, and have to reinvent the wheel to make new bunkai fit.

Yep...there is far more grabbing/seizing/locking/standing grappling/throwing or take downs in kata than most realize. Because kata is done in the air and terminology is not translated properly most of the real applications have never been learned.

 

[skribs]

You know, pushes can be effective crowd control against multiple opponents.

 

[_Simon_]

You know, pushes can be effective crowd control against multiple opponents.

Yeah true, I guess I didn't have that in mind while sparring hehe. And yeah the push/shove is very underrated!