simple reverse punch

[dancingalone]

Aren't they?

 

[puunui]

Biomechanics, smiomechanics. Some Martial Artists can punch a hole in you with a reverse punch. Some of them work the makiwara, some do not. If you get hit by a nasty one, or God forbid, you run into it, the rest of your day (or week) is really going to s*ck. It's even going to hurt while you're driving home. And good luck sleeping in that recliner. The guys I know who have the best ones say it comes from their center, their Hara. It's not what they hit, it's what they emit.

I see your point, but I don't see how it relates to my original post which was in response to a post made by dancingalone. For example, I never said that the only way to train a punch is through the use of a makiwara.

 

[puunui]

Muay Thai Practitioners Kick Trees;
Kyokushin Karateka Punch Trees or Rocks;

And they tend to end up with health issues later in life.

 

[puunui]

Personally, I havent ever used one. Though I dont quite see how such a question came out of discussing the reasons why one would use a Makiwara, when I was mostly saying that since what Youre primarily gaining is proper technique, You dont NEED a Makiwara.

Some old school practitioners would disagree with that. To some, without makiwara training, there is no karate.

 

[puunui]

I have duly noted that KKW taekwondoin can be noted for their evasive and attacking footwork. But while this is obviously a strong asset, it's not necessarily a trump card. A mediocre TKD player, even one trained in modern methods, will get his lunch taken placed in other situations versus ELITE martial artists training in other things.

I think that the taekwondo footwork is, or can be, a trump card, and not only for elite level athletes. And the comparison should be elite athlete vs. elite athlete from another martial art, but rather a reasonably training taekwondo practitioner vs. the type of person most likely to assault you, if the idea is to use both the footwork and the punch in a self defense situation. having the makiwara trained punch and the taekwondo footwork will, in my opinion, greatly increase the odds in favor of the defender, especially when compared to a non trained person faced with the same situation.

 

[seasoned]

And they tend to end up with health issues later in life.

Agreed, because there has to be a certain amount of give or else the force will transfer back to the puncher.

 

[Cyriacus]

Some old school practitioners would disagree with that. To some, without makiwara training, there is no karate.

And some "Old School" Organisations never used Makiwara throughout the course of Their Organisations existence.
Im sure plenty of Karate Systems would hold that opinion, and possibly other Systems.

 

[Cyriacus]

And they tend to end up with health issues later in life.

Some of them are quite old, and look just fine.
The main issue I know of, is not being able to open the hands properly.

 

[mastercole]

And some "Old School" Organisations never used Makiwara throughout the course of Their Organisations existence.
Im sure plenty of Karate Systems would hold that opinion, and possibly other Systems.

Which karate organizations would that be?

 

[Cyriacus]

Which karate organizations would that be?

If You constrewed what I said as saying that Karate Organisations wouldnt use Makiwara, that was not the intention, since We were discussing TKD in the TKD Forum in a Thread about TKD. I would presume.

 

[mastercole]

If You constrewed what I said as saying that Karate Organisations wouldnt use Makiwara, that was not the intention, since We were discussing TKD in the TKD Forum in a Thread about TKD. I would presume.

Here is what you wrote:

And some "Old School" Organisations never used Makiwara throughout the course of Their Organisations existence.
Im sure plenty of Karate Systems would hold that opinion, and possibly other Systems.

If you are referring to Taekwondo organizations in your first sentence, which ones?

In your second sentence, you are referring to Karate systems, hence my question. Which karate organizations would that be?

 

[Manny]

And they tend to end up with health issues later in life.

That's what I herd.

Manny

 

[Cyriacus]

Here is what you wrote:



If you are referring to Taekwondo organizations in your first sentence, which ones?

In your second sentence, you are referring to Karate systems, hence my question. Which karate organizations would that be?

To the first, every single one I have ever seen in My entire life. And thats quite a few.

To the second, that was Karate Organisations holding the opinion that Makiwara are essential, which I said to agree with;

Some old school practitioners would disagree with that. To some, without makiwara training, there is no karate.

The purpose for using two statements, is because I was unsure if Puunui was trying to use that as a reference to Karate, and not Taekwondo, or using a reference about Karate and relating it to Taekwondo, so I addressed both possibilities as best I could.

Taking what I said, and not putting it in relation to what I was saying it to, makes it sound like I was saying that Karate Organisations surely hold the same opinion as the above. In context with who and what I was saying it to, not so much, Good Sir.

 

[mastercole]

To the first, every single one I have ever seen in My entire life. And thats quite a few.

To the second, that was Karate Organisations holding the opinion that Makiwara are essential, which I said to agree with;



The purpose for using two statements, is because I was unsure if Puunui was trying to use that as a reference to Karate, and not Taekwondo, or using a reference about Karate and relating it to Taekwondo, so I addressed both possibilities as best I could.

Taking what I said, and not putting it in relation to what I was saying it to, makes it sound like I was saying that Karate Organisations surely hold the same opinion as the above. In context with who and what I was saying it to, not so much, Good Sir.

OK, here is the original:

Originally Posted by puunui
Some old school practitioners would disagree with that. To some, without makiwara training, there is no karate.

And some "Old School" Organisations never used Makiwara throughout the course of Their Organisations existence.
Im sure plenty of Karate Systems would hold that opinion, and possibly other Systems.

I get it, you say that plenty of Karate Systems would hold that opinion, the opinion that without makiwara training, there is not karate.

Now my question: What (please name them) "old school" Taekwondo Organizations never used makiwara throughout the course of their organizations existence? (I assume you are referring to Taekwondo here since in your previous response you stated to me this was a Taekwondo thread, in the Taekwondo section, etc)

 

[Cyriacus]

OK, here is the original:

Originally Posted by puunui
Some old school practitioners would disagree with that. To some, without makiwara training, there is no karate.



I get it, you say that plenty of Karate Systems would hold that opinion, the opinion that without makiwara training, there is not karate.

Now my question: What "old school" Taekwondo Organizations never used makiwara throughout the course of their organizations existence? (I assume you are referring to Taekwondo here since in your previous response you stated to me this was a Taekwondo thread, in the Taekwondo section, etc)

Yes.
To begin with, the one Im training in.
Secondly, as far as Im aware from every Dojang Ive been to, the ITF. I didnt even know what a Makiwara was before joining the forum.
For that matter, of the KKW Dojang Ive seen, I havent seen any Makiwara. That isnt to say they dont use them, that is to say, I havent seen them.

From some time spent looking around the Internet, it seems that its mostly the Instructors who advocate Their usage, rather than the Organisations. I can find plenty of references to Organisations other than the above which do actively seem to use them.
Listed are, Song Moo Kwan, and Joong Do Kwan. Since apparently We need to be very specific.

Correct Me if Im wrong, but Im getting a vibe that Youre trying to create a logical collapse, in an effort to have Me draw some kind of conclusion from all this.

Also, I did answer Your Question above before, just in case You missed it.
"To the first, every single one I have ever seen in My entire life. And thats quite a few."

 

[mastercole]

Yes.
To begin with, the one Im training in.
Secondly, as far as Im aware from every Dojang Ive been to, the ITF. I didnt even know what a Makiwara was before joining the forum.
For that matter, of the KKW Dojang Ive seen, I havent seen any Makiwara. That isnt to say they dont use them, that is to say, I havent seen them.

From some time spent looking around the Internet, it seems that its mostly the Instructors who advocate Their usage, rather than the Organisations. I can find plenty of references to Organisations other than the above which do actively seem to use them.
Listed are, Song Moo Kwan, and Joong Do Kwan. Since apparently We need to be very specific.

Correct Me if Im wrong, but Im getting a vibe that Youre trying to create a logical collapse, in an effort to have Me draw some kind of conclusion from all this.

Also, I did answer Your Question above before, just in case You missed it.
"To the first, every single one I have ever seen in My entire life. And thats quite a few."

You were very specific.

Originally Posted by Cyriacus
And some "Old School" Organisations never used Makiwara throughout the course of Their Organisations existence.

I simply wanted to know which "Old School Organizations" by name, if you can.

 

[Cyriacus]

You were very specific.

Originally Posted by Cyriacus
And some "Old School" Organisations never used Makiwara throughout the course of Their Organisations existence.

I simply wanted to know which "Old School Organizations" by name, if you can.

Now, I presume that by Old School, We mean among the founders of the System, since We can only really go back to the 50s? In which case, Ive already answered that. With the exception of an Instructors Preference, the ITF. For that matter, the GTF also (Albeit they werent founded back in the 50s/60s. Its just a fairly big organisation, which doesnt seem to use them).

 

[mastercole]

The development of the reverse punch in the “Old School” days of the Kwan was centered around training on the “talyunbong”, or, in ground makiwara, for all schools. Today this practice has mostly disappeared in favor of the use of more modern training equipment and methods.

All the “Old School” Taekwondo Organizations used the talyunbong (in-ground makiwara). These started in the 1940's They are:

Chung Do Kwan
Jidokwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Song Moo Kwan

Their spin off schools also used the talyunbong. These started in the 1950's They are:

Oh Do Kwan (also root of ITF)
Han Moo Kwan
Kang Duk Won
Jung Do Kwan

These 9 schools are as “Old School” as one can get in Taekwondo.

Every single Taekwondo practitioner and every single Taekwondo organization can trace their lineage back to one of these 9 Kwan.

 

[Cyriacus]

The development of the reverse punch in the “Old School” days of the Kwan was centered around training on the “talyunbong”, or, in ground makiwara, for all schools. Today this practice has mostly disappeared in favor of the use of more modern training equipment and methods.

All the “Old School” Taekwondo Organizations used the talyunbong (in-ground makiwara). These started in the 1940's They are:

Chung Do Kwan
Jidokwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Song Moo Kwan

Their spin off schools also used the talyunbong. These started in the 1950's They are:

Oh Do Kwan (also root of ITF)
Han Moo Kwan
Kang Duk Won
Jung Do Kwan

These 9 schools are as “Old School” as one can get in Taekwondo.

Every single Taekwondo practitioner and every single Taekwondo organization can trace their lineage back to one of these 9 Kwan.

I cant say Im surprised by that; However, I do recall reading one possible exception in My adventures with Google.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chong_Chul_Rhee
I see very early affiliation with the KTA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Taekwondo_Association
And the early ITF later

However, thats the only affiliations Im seeing listed anywere.
I also know for a fact, that as long as Theyve gone by their current name (1965ish), They have never used Makiwara. Or Talyunbong. Or any Striking Posts.

 

[mastercole]

I cant say Im surprised by that; However, I do recall reading one possible exception in My adventures with Google.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chong_Chul_Rhee

GM Rhee is from the Oh Do Kwan, they trained with talyunbong, aka forging post.

I see very early affiliation with the KTA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Taekwondo_Association
And the early ITF later. However, thats the only affiliations Im seeing listed anywere.

ITF founder and KTA President CHOI Hong Hi had diagrams in his books on how to build and use the talyunbong, the KTA members were all from kwan that used the talyunbong.

I also know for a fact, that as long as Theyve gone by their current name (1965ish), They have never used Makiwara. Or Talyunbong. Or any Striking Posts.

From interview with GM Rhee of Australia:

What are your opinions of the various forms of supplementary training that martial artists can use? For example, running, bag and makiwara training, weight training etc?

GM Rhee: "We use the forging Post, of course, to condition the knuckles and the wrist etc for destruction. The forging post is also very useful for developing hip power."

Note: The above taken from CHONG CHUL RHEE of Australia REPRINTED FROM MARCH 1985 ISSUE OF AUSTRALASIAN FIGHTING ARTS MAGAZINE