Is it disrespectful to ask your (ITF) master to teach you the old way of TKD punching (Karate)

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe, but I think it unlikely that an instructor would be willing to teach something off-syllabus when the on-syllabus variant has not been mastered. It would be didactically poor practice.

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Unless there's something useful to be gained by understanding the other way, too. Or, at least, nothing harmful about learning it.

 

[Axiom]

Maybe, but I think it unlikely that an instructor would be willing to teach something off-syllabus when the on-syllabus variant has not been mastered. It would be didactically poor practice.

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I don't see how since it's not part of a formal class if I ask him to give me private instruction. And he does have some time over after class, and usually don't mind instructing some more. TaeKwondo is not his occupation, it's his life. That sort of guy.

 

[Axiom]

Unless there's something useful to be gained by understanding the other way, too. Or, at least, nothing harmful about learning it.

The paradox is that he does emphasis a karate like hip-twist in some of the pads practise. But in forms it's sine wave. I would like to learn it in forms, in-depth.

 

[Axiom]

Sorry, boxing-like hip-twist. not Karate. using your entire body when punching pads..

 

[Axiom]

Double post.

 

[Dirty Dog]

DD, I've heard this "sine wave" mentioned before, in this context. What is it?

It's using an up & down bouncing motion to develop power, rather than twisting.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Off topic posts split off.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's using an up & down bouncing motion to develop power, rather than twisting.

When was the change made? And what drove it?

 

[Axiom]

Off topic posts split off.

Thank you

 

[Axiom]

When was the change made? And what drove it?

In a nutshell, to differentiate itself from Karate. Introduced in a seminar in 1980.

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy

This is of particular interest:

Sitting Stance Punch
Both subject’s punches with one hand were harder using the sine wave and their punches with the other were weaker using it. However the differences in power generated were small, as low as 0.25% in one case. On average, the difference in power generated using the sitting stance punch with and without sine wave was negligible.

Walking Stance Reverse Punch
One subject punched harder with one hand using sine wave and harder with the other without it. The other punched harder without sine wave with both hands. On average, the force generated from a reserve punch in walking stance without using the sine wave was 4% higher than the same technique using sine wave.

 

[Tez3]

In a nutshell, to differentiate itself from Karate. Introduced in a seminar in 1980.

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy

This is of particular interest:

Sitting Stance Punch
Both subject’s punches with one hand were harder using the sine wave and their punches with the other were weaker using it. However the differences in power generated were small, as low as 0.25% in one case. On average, the difference in power generated using the sitting stance punch with and without sine wave was negligible.

Walking Stance Reverse Punch
One subject punched harder with one hand using sine wave and harder with the other without it. The other punched harder without sine wave with both hands. On average, the force generated from a reserve punch in walking stance without using the sine wave was 4% higher than the same technique using sine wave.

Mmm. An interesting choice of article.

 

[Axiom]

This was also interesting but not surprising:

Boxing style punch
Subjects were required to assume a regular boxing style stance and punch from their back hand using standard boxing technique (i.e. hands up, chin down, turning shoulder into the punch etc). On average, this type of punch was found to be 30% more powerful than the traditional punches

Although my cousin who's a top 15 pro boxer, and has sparred Wladimir Klitchko, still concider Karate punches better bare knuckled in a street fight, although he never trained Karate. Because the hands will break easier with boxings haymakers.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When was the change made? And what drove it?

I was introduced to it in the mid-'70's. Gen Choi believed it to be a superior method of power generation, although I've never found that to be true.

As an instructor, I'm always happy to work with students on different ways to perform a technique. I honestly cannot imagine one of our students being afraid to ask me a question about anything we teach for fear of offending me.

 

[Axiom]

I was introduced to it in the mid-'70's. Gen Choi believed it to be a superior method of power generation, although I've never found that to be true.

As an instructor, I'm always happy to work with students on different ways to perform a technique. I honestly cannot imagine one of our students being afraid to ask me a question about anything we teach for fear of offending me.

I never had it explained to me why we perform it in forms only, if it is indeed a more powerful/superior method. Any ideas?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I never had it explained to me why we perform it in forms only, if it is indeed a more powerful/superior method. Any ideas?

The principles taught by learning poomsae should carry over to all aspects of your MA training. If they're not, then I'd say you're not learning the principles correctly (as has been mentioned by several people, poomsae is a LOT more than just memorizing movements), or that the principles are flawed.
Personally, I've never found sine-wave to be a superior method of generating power. I neither practice it routinely nor teach it, as a rule, although I've had the occasional student ask about it (usually after watching YouTube videos) and I'm happy to show them how it works.
Having said that, I will also say that while I do not care for sine-wave in general, there are certainly specific techniques (downward hammerfists or elbows, for example) which will certainly benefit from this method of power generation.

 

[Tez3]

I was introduced to it in the mid-'70's. Gen Choi believed it to be a superior method of power generation, although I've never found that to be true.

Is StuartA still around, he's still a member I think though haven't seen him on here for a long time. The ideal person to explain if he is.

 

[Axiom]

The principles taught by learning poomsae should carry over to all aspects of your MA training. If they're not, then I'd say you're not learning the principles correctly (as has been mentioned by several people, poomsae is a LOT more than just memorizing movements), or that the principles are flawed..

Nah, the instructor states explicitly that "patterns are sine wave, "mitts/pad practise we twist our hip (although more boxing-like mechanics than Karate). And I don't for the life of me understand why. That's not even mentioning sparring where of course sine wave is nowhere to be found.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Nah, the instructor states explicitly that "patterns are sine wave, "mitts/pad practise we twist our hip (although more boxing-like mechanics than Karate). And I don't for the life of me understand why. That's not even mentioning sparring where of course sine wave is nowhere to be found.

I think you just proved my point. Thanks.

 

[Axiom]

I think you just proved my point. Thanks.

That my TKD is disjointed mess?

 

[Dirty Dog]

That my TKD is disjointed mess?

Apparently, judging only by what you say. Whether that is a problem with the teaching or the student cannot be determined with certainty in this forum.