Should you ever give up on someone?

[Ken Morgan]

This is a post from a friends blog. He's been working and training in Japan for about ten years now.

He asks if there is ever a time we give up on a student.

Personally, provided no one is in danger and they are willing to show up to practice, i would train them.

I have been paired up with folks who have trained for a long time, but just "don't get it", its frustrating, but i think it speaks well of the persons character that they still show up for practice and continue to train. I suck it up, and do my best.

There is an older gentlemen at one of the dojos I attend. He is maybe 65 years old (although it is sometimes hard to tell with Japanese people!) and I don't think he has ever studied any other martial arts very seriously. He may have done some kendo when he was younger.
He's a very kind, friendly, and genial man. He attends classes quite regularly, and seems to be trying his best. But the problem is, he just doesn't "get it".

Now, I don't expect everyone to be a martial arts genius. God knows that I am on the low end of the "athletic aptitude" scale - I can't dance, can't really swim, am hopeless at ball sports - and I'm not even very good at martial arts when I consider how long I've been doing them.

More

http://jeffsbudoblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/should-you-ever-give-up-on-someone.html

 

[kaizasosei]

Sometimes, if you lack faith and strength, you must.
Also, you don't give up on someone because they don't get it or are not good. That is no problem. You give up on them if they don't want. Otherwise you'd be pushy.

It gets tricky when you advise people on health or belief matters. I figure normally or even for someone who is my rival, i would advise at least three times somehow before silently withdrawing. With family or loved ones, i would like to think i would be relentless in sharing any good ideas i may have, but it is difficult sometimes. People go their own way. I think it's not good to force them out of their way if they clearly say they dont agree or are not interested/no time-
At least at some point before it is too late, one must know when to move.


j

 

[jks9199]

If they're not jeopardizing other students by their mistakes... I'm not going to throw them out. At the same time -- I may stop correcting things that don't involve safety if they seem incapable of eventually making the corrections.

However, to use your friend's blog as an example -- I think there is a significant safety issue if the guy continually makes the mistakes described. He's not moving where he should, has trouble with sides, and does a different technique... and they're working with weapons. That's a recipe for a disaster...

Sometimes, you have to take a different approach, too. There are other ways to teach than saying "right"; it might take putting a wrist band or similar marker on the guy's hand, for example. Similarly, he may need to be walked through more thoroughly than other students.

 

[Blade96]

I read that, and honestly he wondered if the guy had balance issues.....I am no teacher (far from it hah) but I can honestly say, right off the bat, balance means diddly. I myself have a small balance problem; yet I soak up Shotokan karate-do lessons like a sponge, learn very quickly, have grace, and rhythm, learn kicks punches and techniques and stances easily and quickly and can remember steps in sequence verrrrry well (like katas which I adore doing) Its like I am a born MA and even my Senseis have told me i've a talent for Shotokan.

Balance doesnt have anything to do with not being able to get timing right. or know your right from your left. just sayin'

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I see several issues here:

First the older gentleman is probably just not very good at this kind of physical activity and has memory issues. That can be a problem when wielding around training weapons where coordination of partners is paramount. However, it is some thing that can be readily overcome through consistent training and practice and of course diligent guidance.

The other issue actually is with the writer of the blog in that it would appear he may not have the patience to train with someone who is a slow learner or requires extra guidance and teaching. This is some thing I can relate to as I know someone who was at a very high level and eventually felt that he was to good to train with lower ranked practitioners. It was eventually one of the driving forces to him quitting the Martial Sciences altogether. I think that quite often people some times forget that someone guided them, took time with them (some times extra) and explained to them many, many times before they got it right. All of us owe a debt to those people who helped us along and part of training in the Martial Sciences is of course repaying that debt and helping someone else.

The last thing I would mention is that as long as his Sensei is okay with it then my goodness do your best and suck it up and help this man to get better! If the Sensei deems him unfit then that will take care of the issue!

 

[harlan]

This post reminds me of an exchange I had with my own teacher once that has great meaning for me. At the end of the exchange, he told me that he'd only once given up on a student. Someone who not only didn't get it, but couldn't get past the basics.

Turned out, the boy was profoundly mentally ill, and undiagnosed at the time, went on to commit suicide. He carries that 'what if' question to this day.

Personally, in my limited time training, and observing the circle of people I've met, I've come to think that people come into our space for reasons that are hidden from us. Just train them.

This is a post from a friends blog. He's been working and training in Japan for about ten years now.

He asks if there is ever a time we give up on a student.

Personally, provided no one is in danger and they are willing to show up to practice, i would train them.

I have been paired up with folks who have trained for a long time, but just "don't get it", its frustrating, but i think it speaks well of the persons character that they still show up for practice and continue to train. I suck it up, and do my best.

There is an older gentlemen at one of the dojos I attend. He is maybe 65 years old (although it is sometimes hard to tell with Japanese people!) and I don't think he has ever studied any other martial arts very seriously. He may have done some kendo when he was younger.
He's a very kind, friendly, and genial man. He attends classes quite regularly, and seems to be trying his best. But the problem is, he just doesn't "get it".

Now, I don't expect everyone to be a martial arts genius. God knows that I am on the low end of the "athletic aptitude" scale - I can't dance, can't really swim, am hopeless at ball sports - and I'm not even very good at martial arts when I consider how long I've been doing them.

More

http://jeffsbudoblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/should-you-ever-give-up-on-someone.html

 

[bluekey88]

i think this is a very complex issue. As a training partner, I'll work with whoever I'm paired up with. do my best to teach if they are less expereinced than I...do my best to keep up if they are more expereinced. Never would I "give up" on a slower learning parnter. However, should the issue be one of safety (the out of control partner who gets it but just doesn't do it)...then i might seek to train with other partners whenever possible.

Now, as an instructor, there is something to be said with persevering with the difficult student. It is often the ones who struggled to get "it" that become the best teachers. They know the pitfalls and ins and out so a skill set in a way that the prodigies cannot fathom. They truly had to study and learn to get decent whereas one who is naturally gifted oftne has a hard time getting the "why."

However, there may be a point where a teacher-student relationship is detrimental to the teacher and the student. Maybe their respectiv e styles of teaching and learning don't mesh. Maybe the students particular needs are not met by the teacher's skill set...whatever the reason, sticking it out is going to do nothing for tbhe learner (at the veyr least) and may ruin them for the art. In that situation, I think a good instructor identifies what the student most needs and arranges for him/her to get it. It will most likely be a different instructor. I would not see this as giving up on a student.

So, would I stop teaching a student? Maybe, if I could not give them what they needed. I would make sure to steer them towards someone/someplace that could accomodate them. I would never "give up" on them though.

Peace,
Erik

 

[grydth]

I wonder if the wording "giving up on someone", with such a negative connotation attached, may be obscuring something. I believe there is a MA for most people; that is not to say every art is for everyone. Some may flourish in one art, yet sink in another.

In my own experience, I never "got it" during short exposure to Aikido.... and yet Tai Chi came to me quickly as if I'd had a prior life in Shanghai.

So.... I wonder, if looking at this in a positive light, it may occasionally be wise for a teacher to redirect a struggling student to another art where they may well be more happy and successful...

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I have not read any of the follow up posts, just the original post, and I have a bunch of questions, that are mostly rhetorical, but would help me give a better answer..

when you say give up on, what do you mean?

do you mean...

kick them out off your classes?
allow them to stay in the classes but give up having any expectations of them?
allow them to stay in the classes and ignore them?
do they pay for classes?
do you need the money to pay for your lifestyle?
is this your profession, or a side job or hobby?
do you have an established idea of what kind of student you are looking for and do you stand by that standard?
do you feel that this person is serious about training, or just there for the social aspect?
since you dont even know for sure the mans age, how much have you actually talked to him? Do you even know why he is there?
If you talk to him and he tells you why he is training will that change your opinion of him and allow you to make better decisions to help him on his journey?
would you have the fortitude to recommend him to another teacher if what he needs is something you can not provide?
are you blogging as a way to vent, or are you looking for help?
also what do you mean by Dojo you attend?
are you the owner?
the head instructor?
a person of great authority?
or a student?
an assistant instructor?
have you talked to the owner about this man?
have you talked to the head instructor about this man?
maybe this gentleman does not trust you and in turn does not practice seriously when you are around?
get to know him better, or the situation better.


I can go on and on, probably could list hundreds of questions that would be beneficial to everyone involved. The key to this problem and most others is communication, and knowledge. If you know the man you will know the answer to your problem.


editted.... I just followed the link and read the entire blog entry.. I would recommend talking to the head instructor and sharing your concerns. Who knows why this gentleman is kept around, if you are not the owner, or head instructor, its going to be hard to have any say in the matter... but if it was me and I had the decision to make the above questions are where I would start.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Well its not me who has to deal with it, its my friend's sensei. Personally I have had to deal with folks who were all over the place in the past, and provided I wasn't pairing up with them for a grading or a competition, and I wasn't getting hurt, I'd just keep working away with them.

 

[jks9199]

I wonder if the wording "giving up on someone", with such a negative connotation attached, may be obscuring something. I believe there is a MA for most people; that is not to say every art is for everyone. Some may flourish in one art, yet sink in another.

In my own experience, I never "got it" during short exposure to Aikido.... and yet Tai Chi came to me quickly as if I'd had a prior life in Shanghai.

So.... I wonder, if looking at this in a positive light, it may occasionally be wise for a teacher to redirect a struggling student to another art where they may well be more happy and successful...

An excellent point; sometimes our job as instructors is to guide someone to a more appropriate endeavor!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

An excellent point; sometimes our job as instructors is to guide someone to a more appropriate endeavor!

That absolutely can be the case!

 

[Bruno@MT]

I am not an MA sensei, and I am not a teacher, but there are some things in which I have to guide people, work with people, or have to make the tough decisions because I am where the buck stops.

To me, it is simple: if the other person is trying or motivated, I try to help and I don't give up. If he or she isn't, then I don't. I am not going to try and convert someone. If people don't care about themselves, it is their own responsibility.

 

[Flea]

I love this thread. It raises some very interesting issues.

What about the opposite question, a student giving up on himself? When and how should an instructor encourage them to stick with it? And why? And when it is better for the instructor to wish them well and say goodbye?

 

[Ken Morgan]

I love this thread. It raises some very interesting issues.

What about the opposite question, a student giving up on himself? When and how should an instructor encourage them to stick with it? And why? And when it is better for the instructor to wish them well and say goodbye?

i've heard that electric shock works on such students....

 

[Blade96]

lol ken =]

 

[harlan]

In the words of the immortal Kahn, 'Go...or stay, but do it because it is what you wish to do.'

I love this thread. It raises some very interesting issues.

What about the opposite question, a student giving up on himself? When and how should an instructor encourage them to stick with it? And why? And when it is better for the instructor to wish them well and say goodbye?

 

[Joab]

A teacher I had came very close to giving up on me twice. The first time was for not showing up for class for two weeks, but when I explained why he accepted it. The second time was when I was slow in getting it, but than I improved dramatically, and everything went smoothly after that. He told me I was 17 times better than when I began, or something close to that. This has always been the way it has been for me, very slow at the beginning, than dramatic improvement at a certain point, when I start to understand what the whole thing is about.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but I thought it might help spur discussion.

 

[harlan]

Like most things, I think there is no hard and fast rule. I've come across some serious jerks via the internet that give the impression that they expect ubermen and ubertraining...and if you can't cut it - they'll cut you (loose). I suspect that under the guise of 'hard training', it's really 'hard attitudes' that flourish under these *cough* 'teachers.'

Then you have the rest of the world - filled with all gradations of talented to totally incompetant. As long as they want to be there, that they are trying, and one is willing and can accomodate a class of mixed-abilities - why not?

 

[MattJ]

Tough question. Generally, I would say no to giving up on students, with the caveat of someone creating serious danger for themselves or others in the course of practice, or if they have serious and unrepentant deficiency of character.