Should the Govt. License MA Instructors?

[Rich Parsons]

Why would legitimate teachers quit rather than become licensed?

Board(B): Mr. Parsons do you belong to a recognized organization for Modern Arnis?

Parsons(P): No, I am independant.

(B): Mr. Parsons do you belong to an organization for Balintawak?

(P): No, I do not as my instructor did not and the founder of the art was his instructor.

(B): Do you have certificates for your Rank from Modern Arnis?

(P): I have some of them as my Ex-wife burned some during the divorce process.

(B): So, you have no proof os some of your rank? You know this is suspcious. Right?

(P): Yes.

*** Here my Friend Bob steps up and says that he can provide certificates just likes those found on EBAY that started theother thread and then this thread. Of course Bob's would look better and have higher ranking and pretty titles and cost more.

(P): SHHHH Bob I am trying to get through this.
***

(B): Do you have your certificates for rank in Balintawak?

(P): Sir, my instructor does not believe in certificates, as each person has to be able to back up what they claim and or say. His instructor did not hand them out so neither does he.

(B): *** One smart member trying to help me out *** Can you bring your instructor in for him to testify to your claim to be able to teach?

(P): No, I cannot as he has had a stroke and cannot communicate.

(B): How long have you been in the martial arts?

(P): I have been in the arts for 23 years

(B): So Mr. Parsons you have missing paperwork in one art. You have no paperwork in another art. You instructors are either Dead or unable to communicate. Is this correct?

(P): Yes.

(B): Mr. Parsons are you sure you are serious and you are not just wasting our time?

(P): No, I am only trying to follow the law so I can teach and continue to help the few students I may have in my life time so that they can teach in the future and the art survive.

(B): *** Lots of head shaking and wispering ***

(P): *** Lots of sweating and worrying about the boards decision ***

(B): Mr Parsons, you understand that we usually take time to deliberate and discuss this and then publish our results at a later date.

(P): Yes I understand.

(B): But given the data we have in front of us, we cannot, in good conscious waste our time on this.

(B): Request for License Denied.

(P): Stops teaching and wonders if anything is worth the time anymore.

*****

Mean while next(N) person gets up:

(B): *** Same Questions as above ***
(N): I have my Certs right here. I have come from a school with an organization of 50 schools and I have been training for 3 years and want to open my own school.

(B): Approved as you seem to have all your requirements in hand while "others" do not.


********************************************************

I might be negative on this issue, but this is what I can imagine happening real easily. So, and others would just stop teaching in the open. We might teach one or two people but all illegally of course.

 

[Carol]

Carol,

The previous line of the paragraph I quoted has "reminded". The second one you brought up says Required.

As I deal with requirments every day. It is my business.

This is conflicting requirements, and I would love to spend time and the money of the system in a court having them prove to me which is the important word. Reminded or Required.

If they want to get specific they should word it with a "SHALL" to avoid confusions.

It is not conflicting requirements. The first is a news release. The second link that Bill posted referenced the proper statute. Which, btw, uses the word "shall".

Section 358-S:2

358-S:2 Registration; Surety Bond; Escrow of Deposits. –
I. Any person operating or intending to open or operate a martial arts school within this state shall file a registration statement with the department of justice, bureau of consumer protection and antitrust.

Source:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXI/358-S/358-S-mrg.htm

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I might be negative on this issue, but this is what I can imagine happening real easily. So, and others would just stop teaching in the open. We might teach one or two people but all illegally of course.

You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it so - and the history of local licensing of various professions does not bear that out.

As to quitting if you have be licensed, so mote it be.

I note that most people who promised to 'leave the country' after various elections seem not to have done so. I would tentatively predict that most martial arts instructors who wanted to continue to operate would comply with local licensing laws. People who threaten the loudest to do a Cartman just seem the least likely to actually do it.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I can see licensing a commercial dojo similar to a gym, requiring training in CPR and first aid, etc; but I don't see any equitable way to license instructors. If you (general you) don't know my system, how do you know whether I'm qualified to teach it? :idunno:

Agreed.

Beyond this general sort of compliance comes the issue of standards. First off, I think teachers who requires an unusually longer time in grade would be orphaned by the system. Whether or not licensing is intrusive, I don't see it as being terribly effective or equitable. What does one do the rest of the time if one is ripped off or deceived -- call a lawyer, the BBB, or the Chamber of Commerce.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agreed.

Beyond this general sort of compliance comes the issue of standards. First off, I think teachers who requires an unusually longer time in grade would be orphaned by the system. Whether or not licensing is intrusive, I don't see it as being terribly effective or equitable.

I can see such a thing.

What if the requirements for licensing were more along the lines of:

* Background check for criminal convictions or current warrants.
* Holder of current first-aid certification, such as Red Cross CPR.
* A clause to enable licensing authority to revoke such licensing, based on good cause and due process, as many professional licensing systems do.

Would such a licensing system ensure that a martial arts teacher was qualified to teach martial arts? No. But it would serve several important functions, which would in turn serve the public interest.

What does one do the rest of the time if one is ripped off or deceived -- call a lawyer, the BBB, or the Chamber of Commerce.

None of those will result in removing a person from teaching, nor will it close a business, unless economically bankrupted by a lawsuit. Revoking a required license would have that effect.

 

[Kreth]

* Background check for criminal convictions or current warrants.

You can have a criminal conviction from something as simple as a bounced check. Should that be sufficient to exclude you from becoming licensed?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You can have a criminal conviction from something as simple as a bounced check. Should that be sufficient to exclude you from becoming licensed?

I don't think so. But why imagine up a list of reasons why a criminal background check would not work? Such a list could be tailored to something that makes sense - say sexual assault convictions, violent crimes, that sort of thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You can have a criminal conviction from something as simple as a bounced check. Should that be sufficient to exclude you from becoming licensed?

Interesting question

Driving in Massachusetts while under the drinking age with someone that is of age in your car that is not your parent or legal guardian and having any alcohol in the car is a crime called "Minor Transporting". NYS it is nothing at all as long as the container is not open. Now how would the effect this if you lived and wanted to teach in NY but were convicted in Ma.

 

[Guardian]

You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it so - and the history of local licensing of various professions does not bear that out.

As to quitting if you have be licensed, so mote it be.

I note that most people who promised to 'leave the country' after various elections seem not to have done so. I would tentatively predict that most martial arts instructors who wanted to continue to operate would comply with local licensing laws. People who threaten the loudest to do a Cartman just seem the least likely to actually do it.

At one point in time, I would have said oh heck no, not in this life time. Bill Mattocks here makes some valid points on licensing of various professional careers/jobs. Though some are not Governmental licenses per say, they are professional licenses from professional organizations which does not lend much credence to that wiring credibility for your room LOL. A license it is no less.

I would venture to say that a State License over a Federal might be a safer and less intrusive way to go as with states that sanction boxing events (not saying events, just using this as a comparison). This license could cost as little as say $50 a year and some benefits that could be derived from that is you would be listed in State Associations and Licensing Bureaus and such, advertisement per say.

Just a thought folks.

 

[Rich Parsons]

You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it so - and the history of local licensing of various professions does not bear that out.

As to quitting if you have be licensed, so mote it be.

I note that most people who promised to 'leave the country' after various elections seem not to have done so. I would tentatively predict that most martial arts instructors who wanted to continue to operate would comply with local licensing laws. People who threaten the loudest to do a Cartman just seem the least likely to actually do it.

And posting a reply to everyone to make sure YOUR point is told over and over does not make it true either.

Show me one piece of data that even comes close to what you are saying in reference to martial arts?

My life experience with the "SYSTEM" may be different from others, but is just as valid as anyone else.

My point is that your point has no more validity than mine.

My point has no more validity than yours.

Making it over and over, only is a trick that is used to get people used to an idea so when it happens they are not surprised by it.

Tell someone they suck enough and they believe it.

Tell someone they are never wrong and guess what they begin to think they are never wrong.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sorry, Rich, I've just been making conversation. I can see you're getting angry. Take care, I'm all done and won't bother you again.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Carol,

Bill Mattock's initial Post on the issue we seem not to be able to communicate on:

New Hampshire currently requires that Martial Arts instruction centers be licensed:

http://doj.nh.gov/publications/nreleases2008/072408.html

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXI/358-S/358-S-mrg.htm

This is wrong because?

My Post which reference the first link:

From the first site:



They are reminded[/b[ not required.



And the second link is about Contracts and defining them in a legal way.

With in that first link:

New Hampshire Attorney General Kelly A. Ayotte announces that all health club and martial arts school owners in the State of New Hampshire are reminded to register with the Consumer Protection and Antitrust Bureau.

Where in this sentence does it say required? It says reminded.

New Hampshire law requires that both health clubs and martial arts schools register annually and those registration statements contain important consumer safeguards.

This quote above from same link is the second sentence that does say require.


Above in my quote I said Reminded not Required.

My point then and now is that it is not clear.

Under what a reasonable man should be able to be expected to understand and follow. What would the reasonable man do if he is only reminded to do something. It is like homework. One is reminded to do it. One is not required to do it. Are their consequences for not doing it? Yes. But required and reminded do not equal. There is confusion.

My point was that to the initial post that these links were supposed to be clear and concise points of data to "SHOW" the point of the initial poster that Licenses should be done and here is why.

Rich, they are required. Look at the segment that you posted:



The AG uses the word "reminder" because...well...we are a friendly state...LOL. In all seriouslness...its because up until recently, martial arts were not considered to be "health clubs" and therefore not subject to this registration and not required to post and offer consumer information. The statement from the attorney general was another way to reinforce the information - particularly to martial arts schools that have not had to worry about such forms of legal complinance in the past.

I think you missed the first sentence which was my point for the confusion.

Carol,

The previous line of the paragraph I quoted has "reminded". The second one you brought up says Required.

As I deal with requirments every day. It is my business.

This is conflicting requirements, and I would love to spend time and the money of the system in a court having them prove to me which is the important word. Reminded or Required.

If they want to get specific they should word it with a "SHALL" to avoid confusions.

Here I bring up the confusion, but it seems not to be enough. So I guess I have to be wrong. Fine my point is invalid because you look at one sentence and I look at the other. When this whole confusion was my point in the first place. But I guess I am not communicating well.

It is not conflicting requirements. The first is a news release. The second link that Bill posted referenced the proper statute. Which, btw, uses the word "shall".

Source:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXI/358-S/358-S-mrg.htm

Yes it does contain the word "SHALL"

First two usages of SHALL

IV. ""Martial arts school'' means any establishment primarily operated for the purpose of teaching a form or forms of self-defense, such as judo or karate. As used in this chapter, the term ""martial arts school'' shall not include, and this chapter shall not apply to, services rendered by:

Third usage of SHALL

VI. ""Prepayment'' means any payment for services or the use of facilities made before the services or facilities are made available by the martial arts school. It is not a prepayment if a payment for services or the use of facilities is made on the same day the services or use of the facilities is provided. Money or other consideration received by a martial arts school from a financial institution upon the assignment or sale of a contract shall be considered a prepayment to the extent the member is required to make prepayments to the financial institution pursuant to the contract.

Here is the fourth usage of SHALL

I. Any person operating or intending to open or operate a martial arts school within this state shall file a registration statement with the department of justice, bureau of consumer protection and antitrust. The registration statement shall contain the name and address of the martial arts school; the names and addresses of the officers, directors, and those stockholders who hold in excess of 20 percent of the martial arts school and its parent corporation, if such an entity exists; the type of available facilities; a written list of each piece of equipment and each service which the school has available for use by buyers; approximate size of the martial arts school measured in square feet; whether or not a shower area is provided; type of membership plans to be offered and their cost; and a full and complete disclosure of any completed or pending litigation initiated against the martial arts school and any of its officers or directors within the last 3 years. A new registration statement shall be filed annually by the anniversary date of the filing of the original registration statement. Each registration statement shall be accompanied by a registration fee of $100. Any person failing to file a registration statement within 90 days of the date due shall be subject to an administrative assessment of $1,000.

And the above does state that one SHALL file if they plan on having a martial arts business.

The fifth usage :

II. Each martial arts school registered under this chapter shall maintain in the files of the martial arts school a copy of its registration statement filed pursuant to this section. A current registration certificate issued by the department of justice, bureau of consumer protection and antitrust shall be posted or placed at all times in a conspicuous place and the registration statement shall be made available for inspection by current members or prospective purchasers of martial arts school memberships; provided, however, that the addresses of employees need not be disclosed, nor shall the department of justice publicly disclose such addresses except in connection with the prosecution of legal proceedings instituted under this chapter or another provision of law.

It is the responsibility of the person filing to maintain the record.

The next usage:

III. Except as provided in paragraph IV, each martial arts school registering pursuant to this chapter shall post a surety bond in an amount of $50,000, or the equivalent in cash, marketable securities, letters of credit, or escrow accounts, with the department of justice. The type of bond shall be designated by the department of justice. No surety bond shall be accepted for filing unless it is with a surety company authorized to do business in this state. The surety may cancel the bond at any time upon giving 30 days' written notice to the department of justice. Any person who is damaged by any violation of this chapter, or by the seller's breach of contract for sale or any obligation arising therefrom, may bring an action against the bond or its equivalent to recover damages suffered and any other amounts allowable by law. The department of justice, in any action brought under this chapter or any other applicable provisions of law, may likewise proceed against the bond or its equivalent. In no event shall the aggregate liability of the surety for all claims exceed the bond amount. The department of justice may reduce the amount of the surety bond or its equivalent if a martial arts school's membership refund liability warrants such a reduction.

This one is nice. As a $50,000 bond is required to be posted by the person filing. Do Plumbers and Professional Engineers have to post a BOND as well?


The next usage talks about the exceptions:

IV. The department of justice shall exempt from the bonding requirement set forth in paragraph III any martial arts school that meets any of the following conditions:
(a) Provides the department of justice with a statement that the martial arts school accepts membership fees on a monthly basis only.
(b) Establishes to the satisfaction of the department of justice that its membership refund liability does not exceed $5,000.

So the Bond is not required if the DoJ "feels" like it. What if the DoJ is never satisfied?


The next usage:

V. Any seller who intends to open or operate a martial arts school within this state and who solicits or accepts membership fees before a martial arts school begins operating shall place all such fees in an escrow account and shall identify the date the martial arts school is to begin operating. The seller shall provide each member a written receipt for the membership fee and shall provide each member a copy of the contract required under RSA 358-S:3 on or before the date the martial arts school begins operating. If the martial arts school does not begin operating within 10 days of the date originally identified by the seller, the seller shall notify, within 15 days of the date originally identified by the seller, each member of the new date that the martial arts school shall begin operating. If the new date for beginning operations is not within 45 days of the date originally identified by the seller, the seller shall refund the membership fees to the members plus interest. Under no circumstances may a seller hold membership fees in escrow for more than 60 days after the date originally identified by the seller as the date the martial arts school would begin operating. A seller may withdraw funds from the escrow account 10 days after the marital arts school begins operating. The escrow account required by this paragraph shall be separate from any escrow account required under paragraph III.
VI. Any initiation fee shall not exceed 100 percent of an annualized monthly fee.

This is the legal wording about handling monies obtained before operation has begun. Also how to handle refunds.


The next usage:

358-S:3 Contract Requirements; Disclosure of Cancellation Rights. –
I. A fully completed copy of each contract shall be delivered to the buyer at the time the contract is signed. Every contract shall constitute the entire agreement between the seller and the buyer, shall be in writing, shall be signed by the buyer, and shall designate the date on which the buyer signed the contract.

This is how to handle the contract to the person purchasing the service or training will know what the contract sates.

The next usage:

II. Each contract shall state in at least 10 point boldface type the following:
(a) ""NOTICE TO BUYER: DO NOT SIGN THIS CONTRACT UNTIL YOU HAVE READ ALL OF IT. ALSO, DO NOT SIGN THIS CONTRACT IF IT CONTAINS ANY BLANK SPACES.''
(b) ""STATE LAW REQUIRES THAT THIS MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL REGISTER WITH THE BUREAU OF CONSUMER PROTECTION AND ANTITRUST OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND MAY REQUIRE THAT THIS MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL POST A BOND TO PROTECT CUSTOMERS WHO PAY IN ADVANCE FOR MEMBERSHIP OR SERVICES IN THE EVENT THIS MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL CLOSES. YOU SHOULD ASK TO SEE EVIDENCE THAT THIS MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL HAS EITHER POSTED A BOND IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE LAW OR HAS BEEN EXEMPTED FROM THIS REQUIREMENT BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL BEFORE YOU SIGN THIS CONTRACT. IF THIS MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL HAS NOT POSTED SUCH A BOND, AND YOU PAY THIS MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL FOR MORE THAN ONE MONTH'S MEMBERSHIP OR SERVICES IN ADVANCE, THEN YOU ARE PAYING FOR FUTURE SERVICES, AND YOU MAY BE RISKING THE LOSS OF YOUR MONEY IN THE EVENT THAT THE MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL CEASES TO CONDUCT BUSINESS.''

More legal wording

The next usage:

III. Every buyer shall be entitled to cancel his or her contract within 3 business days by notifying the martial arts school in writing by midnight of the third business day following the date of the purchase of the membership contract. Written notification is deemed given if mailed or delivered by midnight of the third business day. All money collected pursuant to the contract shall be refunded to the purchaser exercising the right to cancel.

This handles the buyers remorse clause.



I concede the second link does use SHALL. But, my point was that in the first it should have used SHALL file and not remind nor required nor both as they are confusing.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Sorry, Rich, I've just been making conversation. I can see you're getting angry. Take care, I'm all done and won't bother you again.

I am not angry.

I am just making a point.

 

[Carol]

So the Bond is not required if the DoJ "feels" like it. What if the DoJ is never satisfied?

Sorry Rich, its not what the Department of Justice feels like...note the statute also uses the word "shall".

In the first section, community, non-profits, etc. are exempted from registering and by definition exempt from the bond requirements.

IV. The department of justice shall exempt from the bonding requirement set forth in paragraph III any martial arts school that meets any of the following conditions:
(a) Provides the department of justice with a statement that the martial arts school accepts membership fees on a monthly basis only.

This one is quite simple. If your membership fees are month-to-month only, you don't have to provide a bond.

(b) Establishes to the satisfaction of the department of justice that its membership refund liability does not exceed $5,000.

This is for the schools that insist on using contracts. Remember, no contract = no bond.

Realistically, no school that insists on using contracts is going to be able to prove that their refund liability is less than 5,000 unless their tuition is far below market rate, or they don't have many students and can demonstrate they won't have many students

The intent is clear...the point of the law is NOT to discourage martial arts instruction, it is to discourage schools from entering binding contracts without having a surety bond that will protect the consumer from loss of services paid for if the school goes belly up.

 

[Kreth]

Meh, it's NH. What's the population there, like 47? :lol:

 

[KempoGuy06]

No.

i agree

B

 

[JadeDragon3]

KempoGuy......where in Louisville do you live? I'm in Lexington. Ever make it down this way?

 

[Carol]

Meh, it's NH. What's the population there, like 47? :lol:

Yup. But its a state that not big in to regulations. I mean....regulations...that's for states with income tax. And sales tax. :lol2:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yup. But its a state that not big in to regulations. I mean....regulations...that's for states with income tax. And sales tax. :lol2:

And you get 47 insanely happy people..... DAMN, if I could just convince the wife we could make it 51

 

[Kreth]

Yup. But its a state that not big in to regulations. I mean....regulations...that's for states with income tax. And sales tax. :lol2:

And subsequently funds to pay for roads. Seriously, your state flag should have a washed-out road on it. :lol:

And you get 47 insanely happy people..... DAMN, if I could just convince the wife we could make it 51

Um, XS? Generally the voices in your head don't get tallied in the census.