Sensei or sabum, same difference, like dojang and dojo. I couldn't really call my sensei 'sabum' could I?
One of the Kajukenbo co-founders addresses me as "Shihan", even though he knows that I study primarily Korean martial arts.
Should senior students be expected to teach?
- Thread starter jthomas1600
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One of the Kajukenbo co-founders addresses me as "Shihan", even though he knows that I study primarily Korean martial arts.
Nomad
Master Black Belt
Who gets the most out of teaching? The students or the instructor? Ideally, of course, the answer should be both.
IMO, senior students should be capable of teaching and running a class. Being able to pass on the material demonstrates a better understanding than simply being able to perform it. They shouldn't be expected to do so on a regular basis unless it's something they want to pursue, but it's always helpful to have someone fully capable and prepared to take a class in an emergency (illness, car trouble, etc)
When starting out, this should definitely be in the lead instructor's presence, so he can help guide and instruct the "teachers" on how to become better, and keep an eye out for potentially dangerous situations. There were also some things that our lead instructor would not allow us to teach; he wanted to be the one to pass on certain material to ensure that it was done correctly and as safely as possible.
IMO, senior students should be capable of teaching and running a class. Being able to pass on the material demonstrates a better understanding than simply being able to perform it. They shouldn't be expected to do so on a regular basis unless it's something they want to pursue, but it's always helpful to have someone fully capable and prepared to take a class in an emergency (illness, car trouble, etc)
When starting out, this should definitely be in the lead instructor's presence, so he can help guide and instruct the "teachers" on how to become better, and keep an eye out for potentially dangerous situations. There were also some things that our lead instructor would not allow us to teach; he wanted to be the one to pass on certain material to ensure that it was done correctly and as safely as possible.
Bruno@MT
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Another angle -and this ismore from a traditional JMA pov- is that serious students are expected to become teachers and masters. Traditional systems are an unbroken line depending on a complete transmission from teacher to student, whole and unbroken. Receiving tuition carries with it the implication that you will pass it on.
So once you get to the level where you are a serious practicioner with a lot of experience, it is expected, and your responsibility, to start teaching. Because the higher you get, the fewer peers you have.
Granted, in TKD this is probably a different issue, but the fact remains that the more experienced you get, the fewer people there are with your skill. It is only natural that you pass on what you were taught. And you can only do that if you also learn to teach. And learning to teach is done gradually, just like the other learning experiences.
So once you get to the level where you are a serious practicioner with a lot of experience, it is expected, and your responsibility, to start teaching. Because the higher you get, the fewer peers you have.
Granted, in TKD this is probably a different issue, but the fact remains that the more experienced you get, the fewer people there are with your skill. It is only natural that you pass on what you were taught. And you can only do that if you also learn to teach. And learning to teach is done gradually, just like the other learning experiences.
At my old Kenpo school the black belts are instructors, if you don't want to be an instructor that is fine, but you won't make black. We had a number of complete badass green belts that could give any black belt a run for their money, but they had no interest in teaching. We taught our future black belts how to teach, required the equivelant of student teaching hours (under supervision) and the students were tested on it as part of their exams.
As a student I did alot of things unconsciously correctly, mostly out of simple mimicry, but it wasn't until I started teaching that I really started to figure out why I was supposed to do those things. I am a better practitioner and more knowledgable about my art(s) because of those requirements.
As a student I did alot of things unconsciously correctly, mostly out of simple mimicry, but it wasn't until I started teaching that I really started to figure out why I was supposed to do those things. I am a better practitioner and more knowledgable about my art(s) because of those requirements.
At the dojang level, it is not uncommon for yudanja to be expected to take on some level of instructor duty, even if only assisting the instructor. Varries from school to school, but from what I have seen, it is similar to what you see in JMA.
At a competitor level, black belt may be nothing more than a competition bracket for a competitor who has no interest in teaching.
Or the student gets their black belt and quits.
Where I train, black belts are expected to help out in an assistance to the instructor capacity, but most never become instructors.
So essentially, blackbelt is an administrative/instructor's rank in your school and only partially correlates to skill and time in grade.
Daniel
Rumy73
Black Belt
The answer is that it depends. What are the expectations of the Sa Bum and those of the student asked to instruct? If those are clearly understood in the beginning a lot of aggravation that can occur later is prevented. Students can definitely learn from teaching. Leadership and confidence can grow. The Sa Bum should provide feedback for the effort. If it is to occur regularly, there might be some compensation or tuition reduction in order.
In response to the posts where it was stated "it is expected" or "it is understood" that students should help teach: Well, things are only expected or understood when they are communicated in a clear and timely way.
In response to the posts where it was stated "it is expected" or "it is understood" that students should help teach: Well, things are only expected or understood when they are communicated in a clear and timely way.
My instructor expects all students to help their juniors, either formally (during class) or informally (outside of class - before and after, other times, etc.). Teaching a technique requires a much greater level of understanding than performing one.
Students who wish to be considered for testing to IV Dan must be (or have been for a significant length of time) the instructor of their own class. To prepare for this step, many I-III Dan students are assistant instructors in a formal sense.
Students who wish to be considered for testing to IV Dan must be (or have been for a significant length of time) the instructor of their own class. To prepare for this step, many I-III Dan students are assistant instructors in a formal sense.
Correct. The difference between the last non-instructor rank and the first instructor rank is one form and 30 self defense techniques, and quite frankly it isn't like the grand secrets of self-defense are revealed.
One of our green belts who works hard can have equal skill to a black, he'll just have a bit less memorized. Heck, there really isn't any reason he can't be more skilled, rank is very subjective, I think our senior green belt has more time as a student than half our blackbelts, if I had to guess he is at 20+ years.If you don't mind me asking, what is your belt progression? Is green the last belt before black? Just curious.Correct. The difference between the last non-instructor rank and the first instructor rank is one form and 30 self defense techniques, and quite frankly it isn't like the grand secrets of self-defense are revealed.
Daniel
Pretty standard for kenpo: white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, black.
There is actually a requirement for teaching hours (supervised by a full instructor) for brown, so someone who wasn't interested in teaching can't test for brown either. But a green belt could learn all the brown material and never test on it, that student would then only lack the black belt curriculum. You generally have about three and half years in the system to test for green so they have decent background and experience in classes to start the instruction process on how to teach.
There is actually a requirement for teaching hours (supervised by a full instructor) for brown, so someone who wasn't interested in teaching can't test for brown either. But a green belt could learn all the brown material and never test on it, that student would then only lack the black belt curriculum. You generally have about three and half years in the system to test for green so they have decent background and experience in classes to start the instruction process on how to teach.
KarateMomUSA
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Expected? Does this mean required? We had some good replies. I would try to answer it this way:
I would hope that the atmosphere of the individual school, set by the instructor(s), would be one where each students comes to fell on their own, through their positive experiences at their particular school, that they would want to give back by helping other students where & when possible, assisting or covering an occasional class.
However students are students. If they teach on a regular basis, they should be compensated in some way. If they are going to teach, they should be qualified 4th degree or above. Officially designated asst instructors should only be allowed to teach under the guidance of a qualified & only up to certain levels, like 1st degree up till maybe green belt, 2nd degree up to maybe blue belt & 3rd degree up to red belt.
While all students should look to help all other students, care must be taken to insure the help is helpful!
OP
jthomas1600
Blue Belt
- Thread Starter
- #32
Yes, we have had some great replies. As the OP I have not been too involved in the thread, I've just been watching and learning.
At this point we only have a few people who actually will take a whole class or even an evening for Master Lee if he is otherwise occupied. These people are all adults and, while I don't pry and ask too many questions, I think they are all being compensated. For most of us we will fulfill the requirement at a much lower level. It's not uncommon for a higher belt student to be asked simply to show a new student taeguk il jang or something similar and for many students no more will be asked.
I would just like to address those that have said something to the effect of "I pay to be taught martial arts, and that's what I expect to get for my money". I can understand anyone who feels that way. But for me I see the passing on of the knowledge as part of the gaining more knowledge (a better understanding) so I think I am getting what I pay for. Now if it got to the point where I was asked to take over several classes a week by myself (which I'm guessing by some of the responses happens from time to time) then I might think I was paying to go to work and that wouldn't be cool.
At this point we only have a few people who actually will take a whole class or even an evening for Master Lee if he is otherwise occupied. These people are all adults and, while I don't pry and ask too many questions, I think they are all being compensated. For most of us we will fulfill the requirement at a much lower level. It's not uncommon for a higher belt student to be asked simply to show a new student taeguk il jang or something similar and for many students no more will be asked.
I would just like to address those that have said something to the effect of "I pay to be taught martial arts, and that's what I expect to get for my money". I can understand anyone who feels that way. But for me I see the passing on of the knowledge as part of the gaining more knowledge (a better understanding) so I think I am getting what I pay for. Now if it got to the point where I was asked to take over several classes a week by myself (which I'm guessing by some of the responses happens from time to time) then I might think I was paying to go to work and that wouldn't be cool.
Nomad
Master Black Belt
Expected? Does this mean required? We had some good replies. I would try to answer it this way:
I would hope that the atmosphere of the individual school, set by the instructor(s), would be one where each students comes to fell on their own, through their positive experiences at their particular school, that they would want to give back by helping other students where & when possible, assisting or covering an occasional class.
However students are students. If they teach on a regular basis, they should be compensated in some way. If they are going to teach, they should be qualified 4th degree or above. Officially designated asst instructors should only be allowed to teach under the guidance of a qualified & only up to certain levels, like 1st degree up till maybe green belt, 2nd degree up to maybe blue belt & 3rd degree up to red belt.
While all students should look to help all other students, care must be taken to insure the help is helpful!
Wow. Those are pretty stringent requirements for a teacher, IMO. I started teaching a small program of white belts when I was purple belt (~3 years training); while at brown belt I took over teaching a program that I participated in when the previous instructor had to stop for health reasons (under the auspices of our lead instructor).
As long as the students I was teaching were happy with their instruction, I don't see the problem with this; I was far enough ahead that I had lots to share with them and plenty to pass on. In my own development, teaching the class was instrumental in my continued success and gave me a much better understanding of the material.
Requiring someone to be 4th dan (or above!) in our association would mean they had spent at least 9 years (but probably closer to 15) regularly training as a black belt (following the 5-10 years getting to Shodan).
Obviously much depends on the individual, and it's extremely important that the instructors have support to address questions that may come up, and to provide continued training at higher levels than they're teaching, but in reality someone with a few years experience has a huge amount that they can teach and pass on to those without it.
I've been helping teach a bit, getting yellow belts and white belts ready for a few tests, for the last few weeks. I've been more than fairly compensated IMO; my instructor and I are putting in extra time reviewing poomsae for my black belt test.
While I've expressed before that I don't consider it a responsibility of a student to teach or clean up or anything of the kind, I don't mind helping out when I can. Plus, the look on a 9 year old's face when he holds up a crisp new yellow belt is worth any effort I put in.:ultracool
While I've expressed before that I don't consider it a responsibility of a student to teach or clean up or anything of the kind, I don't mind helping out when I can. Plus, the look on a 9 year old's face when he holds up a crisp new yellow belt is worth any effort I put in.:ultracool
Expected? Does this mean required? We had some good replies. I would try to answer it this way:
I would hope that the atmosphere of the individual school, set by the instructor(s), would be one where each students comes to fell on their own, through their positive experiences at their particular school, that they would want to give back by helping other students where & when possible, assisting or covering an occasional class.
However students are students. If they teach on a regular basis, they should be compensated in some way. If they are going to teach, they should be qualified 4th degree or above. Officially designated asst instructors should only be allowed to teach under the guidance of a qualified & only up to certain levels, like 1st degree up till maybe green belt, 2nd degree up to maybe blue belt & 3rd degree up to red belt.
While all students should look to help all other students, care must be taken to insure the help is helpful!
My instructor had us start assisting our juniors by 6th gup - leading warmups, teaching a junior a new kick, stance, or pattern, as partners in step-sparring, and to help teach beginners in smaller settings; I was teaching my own class, affiliated with, but separate from, my instructor's class as a 1st Dan. When I started TKD, my instructor was a 2nd Dan, so it didn't seem particularly odd to me that I started a class as a 1st Dan - his instructor was a 4th Dan when I was a 2nd gup. The senior in my state - the senior in the organization, actually - was a 6th Dan, and my instructor's instructor was his senior student . When I started, there just weren't that many seniors around.
It's all well and good to say that quality instruction requires experienced seniors - but you have to have experienced seniors available first. Teaching is incredibly valuable experience, and not everyone is suited to it - but those who are, and who are willing to take the responsibility of teaching, should be encouraged to start as soon as possible, rather than putting them off until they reach an arbitrary rank.
My instructor took the time to teach me, and the best way I can repay that is to pass on what he taught me to others - and one of the things he taught me is that teaching is a great way to learn. I have always helped out in class, from the time I knew more than the person to my left, and it's always been extremely valuable to me. However, if I were helping to the point that I didn't work out on a regular basis, that would be something different, and yes, that would need to be compensated in some fashion - and I've known people that has happened to; mostly, they quit, as they were paying to be instructors. But that's fairly rare, as instructors who do that to excess generally find themselves without students senior enough to teach on fairly quickly.
Senior students are still students. They should not be required to teach. Having said that it is true that it can aid in there development.
All of my Instructors are paid. Assistant Instructors come up through a leadership program (I do not charge for this) Initially they assist in teaching classes and are not paid. This is voluntary. Further in any of my classes where we have identified that we need an assistant instructor, that person is also paid and is selected from within the leadership program.
All of my Instructors are paid. Assistant Instructors come up through a leadership program (I do not charge for this) Initially they assist in teaching classes and are not paid. This is voluntary. Further in any of my classes where we have identified that we need an assistant instructor, that person is also paid and is selected from within the leadership program.
