Should "running" be part of your MA training?

[jobo]

Ah but whose reality, those of people who have been doing martial arts for decades or those of someone who is disparaging them?

I'm not disparaging them,( the arts)they are all, well nearly all, extremely effective fighting system. They all give mind and body health benefits , and well worth studying. The issue comes with not committing to a high level of fitness as part of your ma goals. As soon as you say I'm not very fit but my skills will see me through, then you are selling yourselves and your ma short.

 

[Xue Sheng]

people keep telling me that they are not fit, but it doesn't matter in a fight as there techniques' are sound. If its a discuss on the multitude of non marshal benefits of doing a ma. I'm in agreement its very good for your mind and general well being , but there does need to be some element of reality as to its/ their short coming

This of course based on your universally accepted standard as to what fit is for a martial artist, not taking into account martial arts other than sports based, which you based on ones ability to run, skip and lift weights, that I assume you believe we all should be following based on your previous statements in your prior posts.

Not sure the AMA, BMA, ACE, ACSM or BASEM would agree, but then what the heck do they know about fitness standards.

Although it should be noted that by your standard you are simply not fit enough or capable of achieving the levels needed to compete in Mainland China Wushu competitions. Not that you would want to, but then their standard does not meet yours, or form their POV yours does not meet thiers

Don't get me wrong, I am happy this is working for you and I also agree there are a lot of people out there with ranks, both fit and unfit by the way, that do not deserve them and I do not think that being fit wearing an undeserved belt is any better than being unfit and wearing an undeserved belt. But imposing your standards on others and judging them based on those standards IMO is simply wrong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When did those become karaokes instead of grapevines?

lol. I have no idea. My first time hearing it was when I join the Jow Ga school I'm in now. I grew up with it being called grapevines.

Call it grapevines and it looks more like what I do in class, with the exception that we go in one direction around the room, always looking in the same direction so we can get both side (left and right)

 

[jobo]

This of course based on your universally accepted standard as to what fit is for a martial artist, not taking into account martial arts other than sports based, which you based on ones ability to run, skip and lift weights, that I assume you believe we all should be following based on your previous statements in your prior posts.

Not sure the AMA, BMA, ACE, ACSM or BASEM would agree, but then what the heck do they know about fitness standards.

Although it should be noted that by your standard you are simply not fit enough or capable of achieving the levels needed to compete in Mainland China Wushu competitions. Not that you would want to, but then their standard does not meet yours, or form their POV yours does not meet thiers

Don't get me wrong, I am happy this is working for you and I also agree there are a lot of people out there with ranks, both fit and unfit by the way, that do not deserve them and I do not think that being fit wearing an undeserved belt is any better than being unfit and wearing an undeserved belt. But imposing your standards on others and judging them based on those standards IMO is simply wrong.

I didn't make them up, there are indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups. For someone my age 60 press ups is excellent, 40 good , there are ones for running jumping pull up bench press etc etc

I know im not fit enough for marshal arts, that's why im out there everyday trying to get fitter, I'm chasing doing a mile and a half in ten mins, I'm at 11 .20 at the moment. I'm I'm trying to get my 45 press ups to 60, and my pull ups from a disheartening 9 to 15

you don't need to make them up, there all there

 

[JowGaWolf]

that looks pretty intense, might give that a go, I'm currently chasing a mile and a half in ten mins, which is the British arm test standard

none of it is fast running. It's probably best to keep the rectangle less than 10 yards in length (9 meters). The main areas of focus for this exercise is to concentrate on footwork, foot placements and breathing. All of the motions can be found in fighting. I think I have a video of me doing these exercises, if so I'll post it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I didn't make them up, there are indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups. For someone my age 60 press ups is excellent, 40 good , there are ones for running jumping pull up bench press etc etc

I know im not fit enough for marshal arts, that's why im out there everyday trying to get fitter, I'm chasing doing a mile and a half in ten mins, I'm at 11 .20 at the moment. I'm I'm trying to get my 45 press ups to 60, and my pull ups from a disheartening 9 to 15

you don't need to make them up, there all there

Whose indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups are you basing this on?

 

[jobo]

Whose indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups are you basing this on?

there hundreds of them,they are all much the same, try google, im using the one from the us army , as it runs from 20 to 60 , a lot stop at 50

 

[Xue Sheng]

there hundreds of them,they are all much the same, try google, im using the one from the us army , as it runs from 20 to 60 , a lot stop at 50

I realize there are hundreds and I also realize hundreds do not all agree, that is why I am asking you which one you base this on. If you can provide your source great, if you cannot then we are back to your doing this based on personal experience therefore likely not applicable to everyone or anyone other than you for that matter.

 

[jobo]

I realize there are hundreds and I also realize hundreds do not all agree, that is why I am asking you which one you base this on. If you can provide your source great, if you cannot then we are back to your doing this based on personal experience therefore likely not applicable to everyone or anyone other than you for that matter.

I think they are all based on each other, and all pretty much the same, the us army use 2 miles, the British army 1 and and half, some use a bleep test

are you suggesting they vary massively, Il post one then you find one that's fundamental different

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think they are all based on each other, and all pretty much the same, the us army use 2 miles, the British army 1 and and half, some use a bleep test

are you suggesting they vary massively, Il post one then you find one that's fundamental different

Looking only at the US military, if the British standard has weightlifting and skipping then yes they do vary greatly

US Navy requires swimming and they base their running distances on shorter distance than the US Marines. And even then they apply a score to what you were able to accomplish so even they do not make a blanket that says if you cannot do this you're not in shape, which is what you appear to be doing. To get out of boot in the Navy you all you need to get a score of 60 out of a possible 100. Marines you need a 3rd class rating I believe not a 1st class or a 100% so you may be following the standards but you might also have decided that you need to be in that 100% to be in shape and that is simply not the case by Military standards.

But we have at least established that you are using Military standards which are different than civilian standards and all of them vary by age. So yes, they do differ, even within the standard itself based on the scores needed compared to those possible. You are attempting to make a blanket statement that if people in MA cannot meet the standard you arbitrarily chose for yourself that they are not in shape and that is not correct, not even by the standards you appear to be pushing

Using a military standard is great but it is applied to all in that branch of the service but are not the same as civilian standards. Add to that none of the US military standards I have seen say anything about being able your bench your body weight. I see pull-ups, running and push ups and even swimming (Navy) but not weightlifting and benching your body weight. Ran into the same stuff when I was testing for Police department jobs many years ago. Never once ever came across a weightlifting portion or skipping for that matter, as you posted earlier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

there is a general norm of instructor being able to do the things they instuct in. The seems universal true apart from ma. Ever met a driving instructor who can't reverse round a corner, or a guitar instructors who can play a c cord. Perhaps a parachute instructor who can't jump out of a plane?

That's generally true because generally people who can actually do a thing are better at teaching it than those who cannot. However, that's not universal. If someone understands a basic front wrist throw (kote gaeshi) very well, and can do the one-handed version (an adaptation), but not the 2-handed version because they only have one hand, then they may be able to teach the 2-handed version to someone with both hands. If they can, then they can teach it. The goal of teaching is that the other person - the learner - can do it.

I wouldn't expect that to happen often. I've never had a chance to evaluate someone in that situation. But I've seen enough examples of instructors with temporary injuries, who were able to teach things they could not, themselves, do at that moment. Heck, I did some of that when I had knee surgery some years ago.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you not my mate, but I'm your sweetheart?? Ok.
I'm not at all sure what most of your examples have to do with out discussion, perhaps you thought posting your CV would make up for the deficiences in your logic.

let's consider a footballer, all the skills in the world won't win a game if his cardio is poor, even David Beckham had to face that fact eventually. Your whole point seems to be if you can over welm your opponent with strength or speed quickly , then your cardio doesn't matter. Yep that's true, but then you need more strength and or speed than your opponent. A lot of fat guys are very strong,
I'm beginning to think there is a bit of a collective fantasy going round, that if you practise your skill then that will see you through against a superior physical specimen. I think a lot of middle age men think they still have it, despite them neglecting their fitness.

A footballer has to play an extended amount of time to be effective. Someone dealing with an attack doesn't often have to fight for very long, so fitness is less of an issue in that conflict than in competition.

 

[jobo]

Looking only at the US military, if the British standard has weightlifting and skipping then yes they do vary greatly

US Navy requires swimming and they base their running distances on shorter distance than the US Marines. And even then they apply a score to what you were able to accomplish so even they do not make a blanket that says if you cannot do this you're not in shape, which is what you appear to be doing. To get out of boot in the Navy you all you need to get a score of 60 out of a possible 100. Marines you need a 3rd class rating I believe not a 1st class or a 100% so you may be following the standards but you might also have decided that you need to be in that 100% to be in shape and that is simply not the case by Military standards.

But we have at least established that you are using Military standards which are different than civilian standards and all of them vary by age. So yes, they do differ, even within the standard itself based on the scores needed compared to those possible. You are attempting to make a blanket statement that if people in MA cannot meet the standard you arbitrarily chose for yourself that they are not in shape and that is not correct, not even by the standards you appear to be pushing

Using a military standard is great but it is applied to all in that branch of the service but are not the same as civilian standards. Add to that none of the US military standards I have seen say anything about being able your bench your body weight. I see pull-ups, running and push ups and even swimming (Navy) but not weightlifting and benching your body weight. Ran into the same stuff when I was testing for Police department jobs many years ago. Never once ever came across a weightlifting portion or skipping for that matter, as you posted earlier.

why do you believe that how many push up a 55 yo should be expected to do differs from army to civi.
I was ask to define unfit which I did with few examples. I'm not saying MAer are unfit if they cant do say 40push ups, I'm saying saying any 55 yo is unfit if they cant 40 push ups based on the army classifying 40 push ups as a good standard of fitness for a 55 yo. Nb I hate to be picky but pull up are weight lifting

 

[jobo]

A footballer has to play an extended amount of time to be effective. Someone dealing with an attack doesn't often have to fight for very long, so fitness is less of an issue in that conflict than in competition.

how long does a fight last, excluding a knock out blow, generally till one or both run out of cardio, if you cant skip for 5 mins, you sure as hell cant fight for 5 mins

 

[Tez3]

the British army 1

No, British army use 1.5 miles.

This is the fitness level needed to join the British Army. http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/ADSC_Fitness_Selection_Standards.pdf


Press ups and sit up for trained soldiers.

Press Ups
Number of press ups to be achieved in 2 minutes.
Age
Under 30 - Male 44 - Female 21
30-34 - Male 41 - Female 19
35-39 -Male 39 - Female 16
40-44 - Male 35 - Female 15
Sit Ups
Number of sit ups to be achieved in 2 minutes
Age
Under 30 - Male & Female 50
30-34 - Male & Female 46
35-39 - Male & Female 43
40-44 - Male & Female 37


Official Army videos for fitness prior to joining up. Army Fit Videos - YouTube

 

[Gerry Seymour]

how long does a fight last, excluding a knock out blow, generally till one or both run out of cardio, if you cant skip for 5 mins, you sure as hell cant fight for 5 mins

Look for examples of people defending themselves. Even when it turns into a fight, it's exceedingly rare for it to last for more than a minute. Even those that last a minute are usually not the same intensity as a minute of heavy sparring. They usually last that long because there's an exchange of words, or the aggressor is sizing up and taking his time to engage between attempts.

 

[jobo]

No, British army use 1.5 miles.

This is the fitness level needed to join the British Army. http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/ADSC_Fitness_Selection_Standards.pdf


Press ups and sit up for trained soldiers.

Press Ups
Number of press ups to be achieved in 2 minutes.
Age
Under 30 - Male 44 - Female 21
30-34 - Male 41 - Female 19
35-39 -Male 39 - Female 16
40-44 - Male 35 - Female 15
Sit Ups
Number of sit ups to be achieved in 2 minutes
Age
Under 30 - Male & Female 50
30-34 - Male & Female 46
35-39 - Male & Female 43
40-44 - Male & Female 37


Official Army videos for fitness prior to joining up. Army Fit Videos - YouTube

I said one and a half. ?? So what's your point?

 

[jobo]

Look for examples of people defending themselves. Even when it turns into a fight, it's exceedingly rare for it to last for more than a minute. Even those that last a minute are usually not the same intensity as a minute of heavy sparring. They usually last that long because there's an exchange of words, or the aggressor is sizing up and taking his time to engage between attempts.

yes

Look for examples of people defending themselves. Even when it turns into a fight, it's exceedingly rare for it to last for more than a minute. Even those that last a minute are usually not the same intensity as a minute of heavy sparring. They usually last that long because there's an exchange of words, or the aggressor is sizing up and taking his time to engage between attempts.

yes
because they only have a minute of cardio. That's the very point I'm making, if you have 5 mins then you are off to a very good start

 

[Tez3]

I said one and a half. ?? So what's your point?

Your English is very hard to read.

 

[Xue Sheng]

why do you believe that how many push up a 55 yo should be expected to do differs from army to civi.
I was ask to define unfit which I did with few examples. I'm not saying MAer are unfit if they cant do say 40push ups, I'm saying saying any 55 yo is unfit if they cant 40 push ups based on the army classifying 40 push ups as a good standard of fitness for a 55 yo. Nb I hate to be picky but pull up are weight lifting

why do you believe that how many push up a 55 year old should be expected to do differs from army to civilian? I don't know could be because by standards they do. Why do you believe they don't?

And your original statement, that started all this was not quite as forgiving. As for being picky I realize that. but there can be a world of difference between lift your own body weight and do a pull-up, without some sort of qualifying statement; pull-up, bench press, military press etc. they depend on different muscle groups

And out of all I typed you appeared to miss that those standards different within the military standards of the branches of the US military. They are basing their levels on score achieved by how many push ups, pull-ups they do and the score they need is 60% or better

General civilian heath standards but 50 to 59 year olds at an average of 9 to 17 push ups with >31 being excellent.

It is nice you have your standards and that you are going to doggedly maintain that you feel they should apply to all and that any who don't meet them are not worthy of a belt rank, but bottom line is this is a standard you have chosen to apply to yourself that, commendable, does not apply to anyone but yourself, that is unless they person you are talking to is in the Military. It is a nice standard to shoot for but if one does not meet it does not mean they are fat out of shape and undeserving of a ranking in a marital art.

And your original statement was specifically aimed at martial artists and seemed pretty cut and dried..

yes i see your point, but if you follow it through to it logical conclusion, you will end up with a class full of black belts that can hardly walk, there surely has to be a minimum fitness level associated with each level of grade .
I see it differently I'm 58 and I used to be fat weak and slow , now I'm not because I took my marshal arts seriously, if I'm not fit enough to wear a belt with honour I don't want it given to me out of sympathy

But your last statement... now that we have run the gambit from footballers and military people.

. I'm not saying MAer are unfit if they cant do say 40push ups, I'm saying saying any 55 yo is unfit if they cant 40 push ups based on the army classifying 40 push ups as a good standard of fitness for a 55 yo.

Seems to be more forgiving and less set in stone...but then your standard fitness level for a 55 year old does not match what is acceptable by civilian standards in the US which is 32 is excellent for 50 to 59, but 9 to 17 is average and still considered healthy.

Keep your standards, they are commendable, although I think somewhat on the high side, but applying those to everyone else, based on the standards out there which also differ, is simply not right..

I seriously doubt we will get anywhere with this, you are going to stick to your standards and I am going to stick to the actual standards set as applied to age group with in specific groups.

NOTE: I should add also that 1 might be able to do all the things you require, but have a horrible diet and although they may look good, they are not healthy at all. Then do they still deserve the belt rank? They could be a heart attack risk. Or maybe they achieved your standards thought other means like supplements (Steroids) again not healthy