Should Religious Beliefs Be Immune From Criticism?

[Makalakumu]

Off topic I know but just about every forum I've seen, martial arts included seems to carry this kerosene argument along with the Americans causing 9/11. I wonder is it a very widespread belief or just a few fervent supporters posting it everywhere? It seems to cause as many arguments as the conventional religion v science subject. Some of it gets very heated.

One of the things that I've noticed is that people in other countries seem to have less of a problem accepting that the governments explanation for 911 is impossible. And I often wonder if it is the prevelence of religiosity in this country that makes it easier for people to believe in explanations that defy the laws of physics. I have also contemplated the connection between nationalism and religion. In our country, patriotism = nationalism and people who identify themselves at patriots, often have an easier time accepting impossible explanations from the government. Just as someone who identifies themselves as religious would accept the Church's explanation that this or that event is a miracle.

 

[Tez3]

I've never joined in any of the debates over the conspiracy theories on 9/11, lack of scientific knowledge! I am curious though over what people believe and why.
In this country disbelieving anything the government says is mandatory and criticising all people in authority/power is a national pastime. That goes for lay and religious leaders both. I've found Americans though aren't nearly as cynical and jaded as us Europeans (which is a good thing!) We've had the burning of Jews then Protestants then Catholics depending on who was in power and we've had the Crusades, Inquisition and the Pogroms so on the whole religious acceptance (or perhaps it's ennui ) is not such an issue over here any more.

 

[Makalakumu]

In this country disbelieving anything the government says is mandatory and criticising all people in authority/power is a national pastime. That goes for lay and religious leaders both. I've found Americans though aren't nearly as cynical and jaded as us Europeans (which is a good thing!) We've had the burning of Jews then Protestants then Catholics depending on who was in power and we've had the Crusades, Inquisition and the Pogroms so on the whole religious acceptance (or perhaps it's ennui ) is not such an issue over here any more.

I wish it were that way over here. We've had pogroms, genocide, concentration camps, out right lies that have led us into wars, false flag operations, government sponsored torture programs for the purpose of studying mind control, intentional poisoning of people via radiation just to see what would happen, all sorts of terrible things...

And some people STILL buy whatever our government says as gospel truth. I think we need to be FAR more skeptical of what our public officials tell us and we need to be FAR more critical of their explanations.

That we are not is very interesting...and I'm inclined to attribute it to religiosity because of its encouragement to believe in impossible things.

Like I said before, in all of my travels and in all of my discussions with people from other countries, America is unique in that we are so uncritical. No wonder the rest of the civilized world charicatures us as doltish, cowboy hat wearing, gun-toting, rednecks.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not sure what makes Americans seem more "religiously" inclined than other people! I would have associated a belief in miracles with the more Catholic countries in Europe rather than Americans. The arguments you have on abortion, gay marriage etc do seem to be more religion based rather than on human rights and non-religious morals though. The evangelising type of religion seems very popular and to carry a lot of influence, does this carry over to politics?
I wonder if European governments bear in mind their history and how easy it is to get rid of them more then American governments? It's maybe too that the head of most countries is not the government. Blair is not the head of our country, the Queen is and she does have the power in an emergency to dissolve parliament and call a general election. It was done I believe in Australia a while back. Very few, if any, of our politicians here campaign on any religious platform, religion is regarded very much as a private individual thing. Perhaps that's why we are more cynical? The Muslim faith has come under a bit of flak since the bombs in London but on the whole politics and religion are keep miles apart.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

THREAD HIJACK.

Must be a conspiracy.

 

[Tez3]

THREAD HIJACK.

Must be a conspiracy.

Absolutely! We are planning on converting you all to the English religion.... cricket! Funnily enough you can criticise an Englishman's religious beliefs all you like, they don't mind in the least but please don't mention Test matches, Australia and the Ashes it makes them go apolectic with emotion!

 

[elder999]

Absolutely! We are planning on converting you all to the English religion.... cricket! !

Oh, yeah, like that will ever happen.....:lfao:

 

[Tez3]

Oh, yeah, like that will ever happen.....:lfao:

Don't mock what you don't understand! LOL! it has all the trappings of a religion you know! Mysterious rites, places of worship meticulously looked after by acolytes, hushed voices, singing and many many prayers (mostly for rain!)! We could do worse though, for years English people have been more influenced by cricket rules than any religion. Until recently when it became a professional game it was the epitome of 'fair play' and 'playing the game' and "doing the right thing". The game as played on village greens by amateurs in countless villages across England still has the old fashioned values and while fiercely played is a place where fair play and equality still rule!

 

[elder999]

Don't mock what you don't understand! LOL! it has all the trappings of a religion you know! Mysterious rites, places of worship meticulously looked after by acolytes, hushed voices, singing and many many prayers (mostly for rain!)! We could do worse though, for years English people have been more influenced by cricket rules than any religion. Until recently when it became a professional game it was the epitome of 'fair play' and 'playing the game' and "doing the right thing". The game as played on village greens by amateurs in countless villages across England still has the old fashioned values and while fiercely played is a place where fair play and equality still rule!

Yeah, but we have baseball-something truly sacred.....and wholly immune from your criticism....

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, but we have baseball-something truly sacred.....and wholly immune from your criticism....

In that case I won't say anything about rounders!
If people think we've gone off topic, sorry but do think how sport and the supporting of it has taken over in a lot of cases from organised religion. Over here, the Catholic v Protestant argument was always taken to the football terraces in Glasgow when Celtic and Rangers were playing! alot of times you can question a man's beliefs but never the team he supports!

 

[Flatlander]

Unsurprisingly, this thread has gone completely off topic.

It seems to me that there are a great number of people for whom the quest for knowledge and understanding is the underlying foundation of their ongoing pursuits; a great many people are compelled to satisfy their curiosities.

Our beliefs about who we are, how we fit in, and why we're here are usually quite central to how we derive meaning from what may otherwise be a largely uninteresting and unsatisfying existence. Accepting the foundational importance of these beliefs, it becomes almost certain that our curiosity about these "meaningful truths" will compel us to investigate, debate, and discuss them.

In that regard, I believe that it not only our responsibility as intelligent creatures to debate religious ideas, but, in fact, our very nature.

To suggest that people are "entitled" to their beliefs without criticism would be, to me, quite equivalent to enabling others to live in ignorance. Am I my brother's keeper? No. However, can I feel comfortable allowing my brother to live in ignorance? No. That wouldn't be very responsible now, would it? So, if I believe that what's good for the goose is what's good for the gander, it seems to me that, if I feel it's appropriate to engage others in debate, I too should be prepared to have others assist me in examining my own beliefs.

With that said, I don't think that it's conducive to social tranquility to run around kamikazi'ing others of different ideas with abusive rhetoric. Respect and tact ought not be forgotten. I believe that those who are genuinely interested in better understanding their reality will, in fact, seek out others to challenge their ideas. Other types of folks will be more interested in wearing the perpetual blinders of quiet acceptance.

I think that the person unafraid of scrutiny is the one with nothing to hide.

So, to more specific opinions, then:

Should we have the right to criticize? Absolutely.

Should we criticize? If asked to do so.

Should we engage others in debate? As often as possible.

Can any good come from unrequested criticism? Not likely. A cup filled up can hold no more.

 

[Tez3]

As I said before the word 'criticism' is the main barrier to people sharing or examining beliefs.I have my beliefs, I am more than happy to share with anyone interested in them and I do examine what I believe in. The word criticism means to non academics that you intend to basically rip their beliefs apart and ridicule them. Most people will get defensive about things if they feel they are under attack. I prefered Flatlanders words of investigate,debate,discuss and examining. To criticise also comes from the premise that 'you are right and they are wrong' whuch will set peoples backs up immediately. Should people be protected from uninvited criticism of their beliefs, yes but they should feel able to discuss and debate why they have those beliefs.

 

[Monadnock]

As I said before the word 'criticism' is the main barrier to people sharing or examining beliefs.I have my beliefs, I am more than happy to share with anyone interested in them and I do examine what I believe in. The word criticism means to non academics that you intend to basically rip their beliefs apart and ridicule them. Most people will get defensive about things if they feel they are under attack. I prefered Flatlanders words of investigate,debate,discuss and examining. To criticise also comes from the premise that 'you are right and they are wrong' whuch will set peoples backs up immediately. Should people be protected from uninvited criticism of their beliefs, yes but they should feel able to discuss and debate why they have those beliefs.

All good points Tez. Criticism is what results from a critique, but in order to do this, there must be some baseline to compare religion to. Is there some sort of standard set of morals we should base this from? Usually morals come from some sort of religion or societal values, even though there is quite a bit of overlap between them all.

It still comes down to what's good for me may not be good for you. No-one is ever going to agree on one standard.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

it's hard to accept criticism for something like religion, a sports team, or your choice of martial arts. for example, what happens when you ask a certain person one of the following:

"is evolution real, or is creationism right?"
"could the niners beat the raiders this year?"
"can a traditional martial artist win a real fight against a mixed martial artist?"

these are usually choices based on something emotional, which means they won't hold up in actual, informed debate. anything we can't defend rationally tends to get our hackles up. we get defensive, the person critiquiing us gets frustrated, the whole conversation is a) no fun and b) not interesting.

now, these choices, as irrational and emotional as they are, still lead to a lot of good. faith, team spirit and martial training help us all live more joyful lives.

 

[celtic_crippler]

In our PC society, we often find that certain religious people, be they muslim, buddhist, hindu, jewish or christian, hide behind the fact that their views on reality are religious and thus they are immune from criticism.

For example, if you are a 6 day, 6000 year Fundamentalist Christian creationist and you find that your beliefs are assailed by the scientific community, one can seek refuge in the fact that you are being "persecuted" for your beliefs.

Or

If someone presents an argument regarding the historicity of an actual physical Jesus, this argument can be summarily ignored because it is perceived as an attack on religious belief.

With that in mind, should we, as a society, insulate all religious beliefs from rational criticism? If so, why? If not, why not?

Absolutely not. I hold that people get upset when their beliefs are questioned because they lack the amount of faith they profess to have in the first place. Those secure in thier beliefs are not so easily upset by someone questioning them. They instead view it as an opportunity to educate the masses!

 

[Arizona Angel]

Absolutely not. I hold that people get upset when their beliefs are questioned because they lack the amount of faith they profess to have in the first place. Those secure in thier beliefs are not so easily upset by someone questioning them. They instead view it as an opportunity to educate the masses!

lol, I am very comfortable with the "I'm not sure" answer. I believe what I believe because I "feel" it's right, at least for me.

 

[Tez3]

I don't mind debating my religion with anyone just please don't tell me you want to convert! Actually a long time ago I was told that if you live your life in a good way that will say more than anything about your faith. You don't have to preach or claim you are right, just live in a way that shows you try to do right by people and treat them as you want to be treated. when it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter how you think the world was made, after all it's history now! It matters more, and if you believe in a God I'm sure you'll think he'll agree, how we behave now! I can't think God thinks arguing how he made the world whether in a flash bang of creationist smoke or by the slower evolved method actually matters when there are starving people to be feed or wars to end. If you believe God made the world - he made the world, it's a world we are rapidly destroying however it was made and I think He'd much rather we fixed it than spend time pointlessly arguing.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I hold that people get upset when their beliefs are questioned because they lack the amount of faith they profess to have in the first place. Those secure in thier beliefs are not so easily upset by someone questioning them. They instead view it as an opportunity to educate the masses!

I disagree. I have no problem with questions, I don't expect everyone to agree with me nor do I claim to have all the answers. What I have a problem with is when people become so arrogant in there own beliefs that they call anyone who doesn't agree with them *stupid* *foolish* etc. No one should presume that I have come to a conclusion on any belief I hold because I am *too stupid* to see it their way. Because of course, they have all the answers and anyone who can't see it is an imbicile compared to the ultimate wisdom they possess. There are highly intelligent people in both camps.

Actually a long time ago I was told that if you live your life in a good way that will say more than anything about your faith. You don't have to preach or claim you are right, just live in a way that shows you try to do right by people and treat them as you want to be treated. when it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter how you think the world was made, after all it's history now! It matters more, and if you believe in a God I'm sure you'll think he'll agree, how we behave now! I can't think God thinks arguing how he made the world whether in a flash bang of creationist smoke or by the slower evolved method actually matters when there are starving people to be feed or wars to end. If you believe God made the world - he made the world, it's a world we are rapidly destroying however it was made and I think He'd much rather we fixed it than spend time pointlessly arguing.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Cryozombie]

What I have a problem with is when people become so arrogant in there own beliefs that they call anyone who doesn't agree with them *stupid* *foolish* etc.

You beat me to this... this is what is passed off as "Criticism" nowadays.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

to be fair, i think some (not all) of that is .... self-inflicted isn't the right word.

i know a lot of folks who are simply curious how creationists can hold to their beliefs given the mountain of contrary evidence. there's not really judgment there.

and yet, when they ask as politely as possible, the Christian in question has gotten so used to being called 'stupid' or 'gullible', that they hear those words in the honest question as well.