Should Religious Beliefs Be Immune From Criticism?

[Makalakumu]

The Virus of Faith

 

[MBuzzy]

Why dont you just come out and say that your "god" is science. Its been obvious to me for a while.

Sir, please reference the beginning of the thread. I don't believe that anyone's personal beliefs are in question.

There is also a big difference between criticizing a person and their beliefs. Attacking the person is bordering persecution for their beliefs.

Also, as UpNorth stated, Science is not a belief, it is the objective pursuit of knowledge, based on the scientific process. Many prominent scientists in fact are very religious people....the two can exist harmoniously if allowed to.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i think science is humanity's weak grasp on the fundmental gears that drive the universe and this somehow gives us some kind of mental haughtiness to poo poo the ideals of religion.
On a grand scale we don't know squat; but you'd think by now we would at least have learned how to put our religious differences aside and treat each other with the love, respect and tolerance that our religions teach us.
that being said, IMO, only a fool believes 100% of what they are told as the truth.
A line was crossed a long time ago and people started accepting the lessons as reality......those people oppressed (or slaughtered) the one's that didnt see things the way they did and so a new belief system is born.
If you believe something, have the cajones to back up your beliefs and dont hide behind the argument that religion has no business being scrutinized by a scientific eye. the religious eye has no problem scrutinizing scientific discoveries that threaten the basis of faith, or coming up with some new explanation that justifies a discovery by putting a religious spin on it.

As you can see, I never stated religion was perfect. Yeah, the bible is full of bloodshed, and so is our history......look at how many scientific dollars are dedicated to inventing newer, faster and more horrific ways of killing each other, and george bush has the stones to bring god into the equation....lol

Weak as that grasp may be, it is far better then any religion has offered to date.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.......give someone a little bit of knowledge and they think they know everything. This attitude will infect their everyday life and might even cause someone to think they were better than someone else.

im not knocking science.
but, when was the last time science taught you a moral lesson?
now you could argue that it is up to a parent to teach a moral lesson.
who teaches the societal moral lesson.....usually the clergy.
science and religion perform 2 different functions......people shouldnt confuse that.......

No one ever said what the clergy taught was correct......but it was correct for their people. it unifies and gives a sense of belonging. It also gives people the strength to overcome hardship and strife.
Science doesnt tell you to stand up for yourself under the threat of oppresion.
People do not shout "praise Hydrogen" or "bless the Kreb's cycle" as they rush into battle to protect your rights and freedoms.

Since when has Religion offered YOU a moral lesson...



Perhaps a better explanation as to why we have morals lies in the totality of this explanation which is partially summed up here...

That is an interesting paper.....but it doesn't answer any question succinctly......it's just more words and speculation.
He could've said, "I don't know why we do it, heck, it sure is weird."

Simply put, religion acted as science and provided answers in the days when we didnt have answers for the things we couldnt explain. As answers were discovered and removed from the religious tome of explanation, we are left with precious little to believe in and give us the strength to do the things that we may not ordinarily do in times that test our will.

Humans have this need to believe in something else other than themselves because it's easier to think we derive our power from something greater than ourselves, rather than believing we are completely responsible for our every move, every impossible deed, miraculous victories and healings.

 

[Makalakumu]

Good points on all sides. However, we're getting a little off track. Lets focus on a particular religious belief...the muslim teaching that a woman needs to wear a burkha in order to hide her femininity...for example. Should our culture insulate this belief from criticism because it is part of a religion, or should we be open about what we think and say what we mean?

I guess the same would question could be applied to publishing pictures of Mohammed...

 

[donald]

No they should not be. We, by GOD's grace live in a free society, and therfore must accept criticism as gracefully as possible. I would also like to add. That we do not have to accept a rude, or unkind attitude. If someone wants to get loud, or abusive in any respect . I believe we have the right to dismiss them. I think that sometimes those who say they want to have a debate on one subject, or another. Be it regarding Christianity etc.. When their point is'nt being accepted. Even calmly disproved. Get loud, and/or abusive in their attitude. I think in the end. All they were looking to do was argue.

1stJohn1:9

 

[Xue Sheng]

I really try to stay out of religious discussions but I just had to respond to this.

....should we, as a society, insulate all religious beliefs from rational criticism? If so, why? If not, why not?

Only if you don't mind things like the Inquisition or the Crusades.

So I guess I vote No.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

Yes it should

 

[Monadnock]

In the old days, people turned to ancient texts to explain what science at the time could not.

I still think these texts have value today.

1. Acts 13:41
   " 'Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.' "
   Acts 13:40-42 (in Context) Acts 13 (Whole Chapter)
2. 2 Peter 3:3
   First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
   2 Peter 3:2-4 (in Context) 2 Peter 3 (Whole Chapter)
3. Jude 1:18
   They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."
   Jude 1:17-19 (in Context) Jude 1 (Whole Chapter)

Have a nice day

 

[Ray]

Ray - your response is - despite your protestations otherwise - an example of what I was trying to say. You did not support your perspective in any fashion except to state that I am wrong, solely because you believe otherwise - but the nature of that belief was not stated. As for my own post, I very deliberately avoided specifics in an attempt to avoid having this thread - which I think poses a very interesting and important question - from devolving into a debate over the supremacy of particular beliefs.

I didn't say that you are wrong because I believe differently, I said you generalized the responses of all believers in very specific language. I said that your generalization of why believers believe didn't describe my reasons for being a beliver. The words you chose were very specific. I have probably misunderstood the intent of your words, though.

I did answer the question of the thread.

To answer your question What? Religion is an "issue" that needs to be debated so that the poor, misled believer can be set straight? Not at all - but as a member of a minority religion (I am Jewish) I have often been told that I need to change my beliefs, that I am damned to eternal perdition for not believing Jesus was the Messiah - often by people who know less about Judaism than I do about their religion.

Although I am not Jewish, I am sometimes the recipient of such "suggestions" by others who believe differently. It is not my place to tell others what they should believe, or to tell them that they are wrong, or that I am right. It is my place to respect the beliefs of others, to not demean them and to treat everyone with brotherly love (I'm still working on that).

Religion is an issue than needs to be aired and discussed - not debated - so that more people have information about the religions of those whose religion is different from their own, because only through knowlege can understanding truly be gained - not so that "unbelievers" can be turned to the "one true faith", but so that people will see that there are many more similarities between belief systems than differences, and so that people can learn to let others have their own beliefs.

I am in complete agreement that we should let learn to let others have their own beliefs. It's not my practice to debate or discuss religion--those that know me know that I am religious, and sometimes they ask questions. I answer their questions in the best way I can; usually in private, friendly conversation

 

[Kacey]

I think the key is that religious beliefs should not be immune from criticism, but neither should they be specifically targeted because the person voicing the criticism has a different belief system. It is, I think the difference between open discussion and closed diatribe. Too often, I have been asked to explain my views, and then told why I was wrong, because the other person's faith has a different viewpoint, interpretation, emphasis, relies on a different holy text or a different section of a common text, etc.

Are there religious beliefs and practices I disagree with? Certainly. But I respect others' rights to choose those beliefs and practices. It is when the right to choose it denied that I have problems.

 

[Tez3]

I think we need to separate what are religious beliefs and what are culteral or man (and I use this word advisedly) made and imposed rules. I'm pretty sure the Koran doesn't require any more than the Bible does that women have to be covered from head to toe, they are advised to dress and behave modestly.Therefore it is not a religious belief. Female circumsion is not a religious belief. Females not being priests/disciples/vicars/ bishops etc is not a religious belief but a cultural one.
Frankly I don't care what anyone else religious beliefs are! I am interested in whar they are though and to be honest I wouldn't criticise those beliefs unless they impinged on me or put someones life at danger. Like Kacey I have had many people impinge on me, I've been extolled to find Jesus (which sadly I've answered sarcastically, is he lost then?), that I am doomed to go to hell for my sins ( to which I've also answered I'd better do some good sinning them to make it worthwhile) and told so many times Jesus saves (the answer to that is 'with the Woolwich' - a savings group/bank in the UK) Ok sarky and flip answers but I am so tired of people trying to convert me! Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslims,Pagans, Confucians, agnostics and atheists all discuss with me their faiths and mine without any rancour, we find more in common than we have apart so why do some Christians have to be so strident in their wish to convert us? BTW I do like the Pagans (it's not black magic and devil worship! they are nice gentle people) If I were ever to convert which is highly unlikely the only ones I'd go to are the Quakers, I have a huge admiration for them. Why not accept the different faiths and get on with the important things in life, like making sure there is a future for our children?

 

[Andrew Green]

im not knocking science.
but, when was the last time science taught you a moral lesson?
now you could argue that it is up to a parent to teach a moral lesson.
who teaches the societal moral lesson.....usually the clergy.
science and religion perform 2 different functions......people shouldnt confuse that.......

This sort of idea seems to suggest that you believe atheists lack morallity.

How about this then

In order to live in a group, moraillty is required. Therefore as the benefits of living in a group are high, morallity will work its way in through Darwininian like social evolution. As the group grows, a method of standardizing and teaching morallity must come into it, so Darwinism leads to Religion

Anyways, morallity is not dependant on religion, religion can even be used to corrupt morallity and get people to do things there "natural" sense of morallity would probably prevent them from doing. (ex. Inquisition, Crusades, crashing planes into buildings, etc.)

 

[jetboatdeath]

Well it seems to me that most religions are immune to criticism other than Christianity.
The Jews made up a word for it. If you say something about a Muslim look out cause we have been told all Muslims are not bad.
But day in day out we see stuff on TV how Christians are ruining the world and what not.
It’s funny how Mel can get beat up for the entire Jew bashing thing but it’s ok to beat on Christians day in and day out.
Maybe as Christians we need to make up a tag word for being bashed, something like anti-Christ.
But in todays anti-Christian society that would be cool and all so maybe not.

 

[Ray]

In order to live in a group, moraillty is required. Therefore as the benefits of living in a group are high, morallity will work its way in through Darwininian like social evolution. As the group grows, a method of standardizing and teaching morallity must come into it, so Darwinism leads to Religion

Anyways, morallity is not dependant on religion, religion can even be used to corrupt morallity and get people to do things there "natural" sense of morallity would probably prevent them from doing. (ex. Inquisition, Crusades, crashing planes into buildings, etc.)

Living in a group does not promote morality...it promotes adherence to the rules and mores of the group (maybe that's the definition of morality?).

 

[Tez3]

We made a word up for it? do you mean anti Semitism? I suggest you look it up in the dictionary. See what Semite means too.
I don't think religion should be immune from criticism but why would people want to criticise it? I would no more criticise someone's beliefs than I would criticise their eye colour, taste in clothes or cars. Why would I want to? You can come across and worship the Loch Ness monster for all I care, I might ask you why (because I'm curious) but I wouldn't criticise you for it. You can dance around the woods naked at night and all I'd think probably is that it's a cold night to be out. Why criticise?
If you want to believe there is no God, fine. If you want to believe there is, fine. My car is green, yours is blue.... and? If you believe in God and don't like people saying we are descended from apes why worry? Who do you think made the apes then? there is a lot to be said for that modern word -CHILL!
I wasn't bashing Christians, I was bashing people who don't respect me, these happened to be Christians who were doing a grand job of trying to bash me.

 

[jetboatdeath]

I agree leave it open to Criticism, but let all be open to it. Like you I could care less. But lets be fair. I see more anti Christian than anything else. We can't have Christmas now because fear of someone being offended. But Chanuka is ok, you will see a happy Chanuka and Kwansa spots on TV here in Chicagoland but all Christmas referances are always happy hollidays,why?
I feel i lead the topic away from the original post so I will drop out of the thread.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well it seems to me that most religions are immune to criticism other than Christianity.
The Jews made up a word for it. If you say something about a Muslim look out cause we have been told all Muslims are not bad.
But day in day out we see stuff on TV how Christians are ruining the world and what not.
It’s funny how Mel can get beat up for the entire Jew bashing thing but it’s ok to beat on Christians day in and day out.
Maybe as Christians we need to make up a tag word for being bashed, something like anti-Christ.
But in todays anti-Christian society that would be cool and all so maybe not.

I think this is a little bit misleading.

On the whole, it is not "ok" too attack Christians. It is also not really done, especially in America. Name one US President that did not claim to be a Christian...

Certain Christian beliefs are knocked because they are silly, ex. Creationism. Certain groups are cristisized because they are insane, but that goes for all religions. In general, fundamentalist views, be they Christian or otherwise, are going to clash with logic and science.

Fundamentalist groups, generally tend to impose there beliefs on everyone else and show a complete blindspot to other viewpoints.

But Christianity is not the thing getting critisized, some interpretations of it are. Same as with other religions.

Most Critisim of a religion as a whole does not come from secular sources, it comes from people of other religions. Usually, those pesky fundamentalists again...

 

[Tez3]

I must admit I find some of the 'crazier' ones amusing, I saw a programme ages ago where somewhere in America ( sorry this is vague it was a while ago) they handle live rattlesnakes in there church as part of their worship. thought that was weird but whatever floats your boat!
The people I'm most wary of is people who convert! I have a Catholic friend who feels exactly the same way, I have only met one jewish convert and she drove us mad. She insists on everything being exact and lectured us endlessly. We took to avoiding her in the end which is a bit shameful really as she meant well. There is a Catholic Bishop in England who was Jewish and converted, not content to be just a Catholic he had to go for promotion. I think the fundamentalists are like this, As I said I don't think Darwin should give them any problems, God still created the world ( if you don't want to believe that it's not a problem is it?) and I think in a cleverer way than just going poof bang there you are. Simplistic? Maybe but it works for me. I really believe living a good life and being kind to people is more important ( and I like to think to God too) than how we actually came into being. It's interesting from a scientific view but not essential for our everyday lives.

 

[Andrew Green]

Which I think is another point against Christianity being exempt in America.

Suppose someone where to start working to "Spread the word", in a non-offensive way. Simple advertising, delivering leaflets, etc.

Generally seen as acceptable right?

Now suppose this person was doing so for Islam, or Pagan religions? or even Atheism? I think they'd get a lot more hate mail then if they where spreading Christianity.

Christian beliefs, on this continent, are just more common. They get more of everything. Other religions are more likely to "stay out of the way"

 

[Cryozombie]

Certain Christian beliefs are knocked because they are silly, ex. Creationism.

While I wont get into this as a seperate argument... what sounds sillier...

About a Billion Distinct lifeforms were placed here by someone or somthing,

Or

A Billion Distinct Lifeforms formed out of mutations created "scientifically" by lightning hitting primordial goo, both of which formed "scientifically" when "nothing" exploded and turned into everything.