Shotokan Karate

[TimoS]

In other words the core of the sytem is body shifting and body positioning where we can then concetrate our power into our counter.

Yep, the best kind of blocking is not to be there when the punch/kick comes To us, taisabaki is one of the most essential things to learn

 

[Littledragon]

That tends to be a common misconception. Shorinyu is a more angular style. Our blocks are secondary. In other words the core of the sytem is body shifting and body positioning where we can then concetrate our power into our counter. People tend counfuse it as weak due to the fact that we don't block as hard as Shotokan or Kyokoshin. Now if you're talking about the intesity in training well that may be up to the instructor(s). But every time we train I'm soaked and exhausted. It is also how one trains.

Well its not the art that makes the training exhausted it is up to the persojn how hard they work. But I have seen Shorinyu I don't practice it so I shouldn't make any judgements but from what I have seen and read I feel it is one of the Japanese arts that is too traditional for lets say a street fight. I have seen the articles in black belt when they use Shorinyu for self defense and in my opinion there were way too many theoritical moves executed.

This is just my young opinion but I would love to here more on your knowledge on this art.

Tarek

 

[TonyU]

That's right, what you are seeing is people making it more complicated that what it is. As far as my experience 20 years of training (Yeap I'm a tad older)and 10 years as Narcotics Detective where I have had to put it to good use many a times. It (Shorinyu) has afforded me many tools out on the street even grappling on the ground. Which I love because most untrained suspects choose not to resist after they are taken to the ground.
One of the things my instructor always said "Our Katas are not pretty or flashy, they just work."

 

[Littledragon]

That's right, what you are seeing is people making it more complicated that what it is. As far as my experience 20 years of training (Yeap I'm a tad older)and 10 years as Narcotics Detective where I have had to put it to good use many a times. It (Shorinyu) has afforded me many tools out on the street even grappling on the ground. Which I love because most untrained suspects choose not to resist after they are taken to the ground.
One of the things my instructor always said "Our Katas are not pretty or flashy, they just work."

How effective would that dominantly standing up art be if taken to the ground by a grappler?

Respectfully,
Tarek :asian:

 

[TonyU]

If taught and trained properly, very effective. There are moves in katas that can be done laying down. There are chokes, arm bars, among other things in katas, but here is the caveat it need to be practiced with a partner. Now don't misunderstand me. No way near the training of BJJ, but practical and efective nevertheless. Many practitioners just do katas but won't practice the techniques. So many traditonal styles like mine won't grapple and only be content with kata. They only do surface karate as I call it. That is why many people turn away from traditional styles. One need to look deeper into the style and break it down. Our instrutor lets us go all out when we fight and I train with a good friend of mine who's in the Marine Corps and teaches Marine Corps Martial Arts. We train hard and fast. You are right our style is dominately a standing up style but we have adopted it to a variety of self defense. When I first started training (many moons ago) I spent weeks, months on break falls and that was when I trained in Shukokai a Shotokan derivative. You usually see that done only in throwing styles like Aikido. When I switched to Shorinyu same thing, coutless hours were spent on getting comfrotable on the ground. My instrutor has also been very open and has had many guest instrutors teach at our dojo, and we are not afraid to "borrow" from other disciplines. It can only enhace you training, but I still beleive that one needs to commit to one discipline and make it your core. Than one can expand.
That is my humble opinion.
"It is not the Art that fails the person, It is the person that fails the Art."

 

[Littledragon]

If taught and trained properly, very effective. There are moves in katas that can be done laying down. There are chokes, arm bars, among other things in katas, but here is the caveat it need to be practiced with a partner. Now don't misunderstand me. No way near the training of BJJ, but practical and efective nevertheless. Many practitioners just do katas but won't practice the techniques. So many traditonal styles like mine won't grapple and only be content with kata. They only do surface karate as I call it. That is why many people turn away from traditional styles. One need to look deeper into the style and break it down. Our instrutor lets us go all out when we fight and I train with a good friend of mine who's in the Marine Corps and teaches Marine Corps Martial Arts. We train hard and fast. You are right our style is dominately a standing up style but we have adopted it to a variety of self defense. When I first started training (many moons ago) I spent weeks, months on break falls and that was when I trained in Shukokai a Shotokan derivative. You usually see that done only in throwing styles like Aikido. When I switched to Shorinyu same thing, coutless hours were spent on getting comfrotable on the ground. My instrutor has also been very open and has had many guest instrutors teach at our dojo, and we are not afraid to "borrow" from other disciplines. It can only enhace you training, but I still beleive that one needs to commit to one discipline and make it your core. Than one can expand.
That is my humble opinion.
"It is not the Art that fails the person, It is the person that fails the Art."

Very well said thanks for explaining.

Tarek

 

[TimoS]

It (Shorinyu) has afforded me many tools out on the street even grappling on the ground.

Out of curiosity, which Shorin ryu do you practise ?

 

[Littledragon]

Out of curiosity, which Shorin ryu do you practise ?

Ye I was thinking the same thing because I did not know Shorin Ryu was a grappling martial art unless I am mistaken. I thought it was predominantlly a striking art.

 

[TimoS]

Ye I was thinking the same thing because I did not know Shorin Ryu was a grappling martial art unless I am mistaken. I thought it was predominantlly a striking art.

Well, yes and no, I guess. I don't practise any Shorin ryu myself, just a close relative so my comments (and experience) aren't directly comparable, but the way I see it, the comments make perfect sense. The Shorin, or in my case, Shorinji kata do contain a lot that can be used in grappling, if you know how to apply them (I don't, but I've only been practising for a bit under three years, so maybe with time). As for using the moves from kata laying down, I guess that it is entirely possible, but again you just need to look for them and practise them. Of course you should try to avoid going down to ground as much as possible, but sometimes you just can't avoid it

 

[Littledragon]

Well, yes and no, I guess. I don't practise any Shorin ryu myself, just a close relative so my comments (and experience) aren't directly comparable, but the way I see it, the comments make perfect sense. The Shorin, or in my case, Shorinji kata do contain a lot that can be used in grappling, if you know how to apply them (I don't, but I've only been practising for a bit under three years, so maybe with time). As for using the moves from kata laying down, I guess that it is entirely possible, but again you just need to look for them and practise them. Of course you should try to avoid going down to ground as much as possible, but sometimes you just can't avoid it

But does it really ehmpasize on enough so it is a complete grappling art? Do you think that it focuses on certain applications in order for it to be effective?

 

[TimoS]

But does it really ehmpasize on enough so it is a complete grappling art? Do you think that it focuses on certain applications in order for it to be effective?

Difficult question. What really is a grappling art, especially a complete one ? To me, karate is primarily an art that is done standing up, and that uses mostly blocks, kicks and punches, but the kata do contain a lot of throws, takedowns, locks etc. I have much to discover from karate yet, so I'm not too certain about the focus. My opinion is that yes, it contains basically all you need for just about any range, and the focus is quite dependant on how you are taught, i.e. does your sensei understand these things or do you have to discover them totally by yourself.
The way we're taught is that sensei doesn't give us everything, we have think ourselves about applications, he might show us only, say, 60% of the stuff and the rest is up to us to discover.

 

[Littledragon]

Difficult question. What really is a grappling art, especially a complete one ? To me, karate is primarily an art that is done standing up, and that uses mostly blocks, kicks and punches, but the kata do contain a lot of throws, takedowns, locks etc. I have much to discover from karate yet, so I'm not too certain about the focus. My opinion is that yes, it contains basically all you need for just about any range, and the focus is quite dependant on how you are taught, i.e. does your sensei understand these things or do you have to discover them totally by yourself.
The way we're taught is that sensei doesn't give us everything, we have think ourselves about applications, he might show us only, say, 60% of the stuff and the rest is up to us to discover.

Throws and takedowns are different from grappling, I am talking about basically ground fighting like Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and Sambo. I don't think Shorin Ryu would fit in those categories, actually I am positive its not.

 

[TimoS]

Throws and takedowns are different from grappling, I am talking about basically ground fighting like Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and Sambo. I don't think Shorin Ryu would fit in those categories, actually I am positive its not.

Not as well as judo or BJJ, but I'm fairly sure that it can be adapted, just as (almost) any other style of karate. In my opinion it is only a question of how you practise.

By the way, not all jujutsu styles teach ground fighting, especially not all the old ones

 

[Littledragon]

Not as well as judo or BJJ, but I'm fairly sure that it can be adapted, just as (almost) any other style of karate. In my opinion it is only a question of how you practise.

By the way, not all jujutsu styles teach ground fighting, especially not all the old ones

Ye not all the Japanese Ju-Jutsu styles teach ground fighting but I am referring to predominantlly Graice/Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu.

 

[TonyU]

Qoute by TimoS
"Out of curiosity, which Shorin ryu do you practise ?"

I study Kobayashi ShorinRyu. The lineage is as follows; Chibana-Nakazato-Herten-Me.

Quotte by littledragon
"Ye I was thinking the same thing because I did not know Shorin Ryu was a grappling martial art unless I am mistaken. I thought it was predominantlly a striking art."

It isn't. It is a predominately striking art. But it does have some grappling in it and defense against.

Quote by timoS
"Well, yes and no, I guess. I don't practise any Shorin ryu myself, just a close relative so my comments (and experience) aren't directly comparable, but the way I see it, the comments make perfect sense. The Shorin, or in my case, Shorinji kata do contain a lot that can be used in grappling, if you know how to apply them (I don't, but I've only been practising for a bit under three years, so maybe with time). As for using the moves from kata laying down, I guess that it is entirely possible, but again you just need to look for them and practise them. Of course you should try to avoid going down to ground as much as possible, but sometimes you just can't avoid it"

That was what I was trying to say. When my friend took me down for the first time. I was shocked that I responded well. I instictively fought with effective strikes (While on my back) and then we boh wound up with ankle locks (I tapped out first.)
I also don't practice to see who pins who first. I practice to survive, break anything I get my hands on. If it's in my grip, it's mine.
TimoS with time you will see the techniques in your katas, they are also in Shotoan katas, and a slew of other predominately striking styles.
We'll talk some more. I have to get back to work now.

 

[TimoS]

We'll talk some more. I have to get back to work now.

:-offtopic
Getting way off-topic here, but I'm on vacation this week :boing2: (Which suits me just fine, as this week we'll be having a four day camp here in Finland with the head of our karate style, Iwao Tamotsu sensei :drinkbeer)

 

[TonyU]

Funny you mentioned vacation. So will I as of Friday July 2. Enjoy.

 

[marshallbd]

do you study the teachings of gichin funakoshi?

what is your favorite aspect of the art?

your toughts and input are greatly appreciated
:asian:

I studied Shotokan during my time stationed overseas (Germany). I thouroughly enjoyed, and still do, the traditional aspect of the art as well as the Kata. Especially when you begin to discover the Bunkai (sp?). Never can remember how that is spelled. I no longer train in a Dojo but have video of Kenneth Funakoshi doing all the Kata and I choose 1 Kata per week and practice it daily for approximately 1 hour per day. (Sundays excluded). It brings me peace in my soul....Thanks for listening :asian:

 

[RRouuselot]

kata were passed down from the masters of old for a reason for the purpose of them being analyzed, to find the bunkai, that is the true art. But some people like Gichen Funakoshi dilluted the kata to where you may if you are lucky find a bunkai technique in one of them so I quote Choki Motobu:

"Funakoshi had great teachers but only learned the outside of karate...He is just a Shamisen player...hes a confindence trickster with a silver tounge...If he fought me I would kick his a** all of the way back to Okinawa..."
--Choki Motobu
Conversely, Motobu referred to Funakoshi’s karate as a Shamisen (3 stringed Okinawan guitar), beautiful on the outside but hollow on the inside.

Kata is karate itself...

I read a story once where Motobu basically "pimp slapped" Funakoshi in Funakoshi's own dojo infront of his own students.
After reading things about Funakoshi and what other Okinawan Karateka thought of him I get the impression he was a major putz.

 

[Mekugi]

He's lucky Jigaro Kano was around from what I hear. There is no telling how long he would have lasted in the Kanto area without him.

I read a story once where Motobu basically "pimp slapped" Funakoshi in Funakoshi's own dojo infront of his own students.
After reading things about Funakoshi and what other Okinawan Karateka thought of him I get the impression he was a major putz.