Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu

[Saitama Steve]

Had a letter come into the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai office last month all the way from Ireland asking if a certain Sato ryu was legitimate. I had to translate this for my teacher.

Any connection to this rather spurious Saito ryu?

 

[Saitama Steve]

I've just run a google on it and found a website. Clearly nothing to do with this Saito ryu. (Should have done my homework first. Doh!)

Anyway here's the website.

Sato ryu

 

[Saitama Steve]

I've just done a google on said "Sato ryu" and found a website for it. Nothing to do with Saito ryu whatsoever. (Should have done a background check first. Doh!)

Anyway, here's the website.

Sato ryu

 

[Ihab]

the only proof that mr. saito was taught by his grandfather is mr. saitos mother. she used to refine him after his lessons.
but she passed away in '86, so there is no proof

i presume none of you have met the saitos
yes their story is unconventianol, and their art is different
our style of jui-jitsu is not what you consider taditional japanese juijitsu, it resembles baguajang.
pa sai chou, and pa sai dai the unballanced fighting arts
tengu swordsmanship
are all very unique

but to someone who has had the privilage of training with the
saitos in dojos, beaches, jounies deep in the mountains

i had a chance to see what IT is all about

i fully believe this art was the gift of the shorinjin to the saito clan

i understand my senpi chris has posted a few messages
he is much more knowledgable than i

if you have any questions for us we're around

aloha

ihab

 

[Ninway J]

I just realized something interesting. Someone mentioned that Saito Ninjitsu kata looks like Okinawan Karate. Okinawan Karate looks very "chinese." So does Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu. So does Shorinji or Chinese Kempo (of course). They all use the word pinan (however you want to spell it) to name some katas. They all have shaolin influence (shorin-ryu, shorinjin-ryu, shorinji.) Kempo was started in Hawaii. Mark Saito Sr. is from Hawaii. To me, all three arts look very similar, but I'd have to say that Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu looks more like Kempo.

Okinawa is closer to China than the rest of Japan, considering that only the ocean is between them. Fukushima prefecture is in the Tohoku region, the northern-most region of the main island of Honshu, on the pacific ocean-side of the island.

Don Roley, where in Japan do you live?

My point of this post? I have no idea. Just thought I'd play around with some interesting info and throw it out there for you all.:shrug:

BTW Ihab, I'm a Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu practitioner too (in case you didn't already notice.) Unless there's something new, don't bother with posting too much here. I think everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, has pretty much been said so far...

Just for the record, it's Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu, or simply Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu. Not Shorinjin Saito-ryu Ninjitsu...so you don't it confused with Sato ryu, or something else.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm starting to have my doubts here. I mean... lets take it out of the context of the Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu for a moment, so the Shorinjin-ryu guys can see what I mean.


Because you see, I study an ancient Vyking Axe Fighting Art from Norway. My master is Ragnar Lobrok, and he learned from his master who was an Uncle. His family didn't know he studied it because it was a less well known axe art, only taught uncle to uncle, so dont ask his dad, he doesnt know. Don't look for it in norway tho either, because his family was the only ones who knew it it was so secret. And being Vikings, they couldnt read or write, so you will not find a written record of this style being used, even in accounts of combat written down by their enemies. Also, see, they use the word Vyking, but they werent actually Vikings, so they changed the spelling because it has a different meaning in norway where no one has heard of it.

Also, the axes they use were not traditional Viking Axes, they actually look like modern Army entrenching tools. No, there are no examples of the originals in Norway, My masters family has all of them.

But Ive seen him swing that axe, so he is for real!

Ok... now, admit to me, my story doesnt sound REALLY REALLY far fetched... But its just an echo of the Saito story... The lack of ANY record of the style, even by the opponents of it, no evidence that the "pineapple knife" they call a Tengu Sword in any records, artwork, private collections (Except the saito's) or museums...

I dunno. It sounds funny to me...

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Ihab
hanschichi saito

I see three possibilities here:
1. This is a typo
2. You can't spell
3. This is not a Japanese name
3a. Is there maybe some German blood in the Saito family line?

Jeff

 

[Ihab]

i admit i'm not the best speller in the world

but this is his real japanese name,
saitos were 100% japanese, until hanschichi moved to hawaii
his daughter married a potugese man

i visited his grave in hawaii, and that's how his name is printed on his tombstone

also mr david kawaikoolihi nuuhiwa "uncle david" or "dr. kaito"
is a very old friend of mr saito sr
he knows of mr saitos training with his grandfather
uncle david is the ceremonial king of hawaii, 12th dan kaito gaku, master of hawaiian art of lua

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
also mr david kawaikoolihi nuuhiwa "uncle david" or "dr. kaito"
is a very old friend of mr saito sr
he knows of mr saitos training with his grandfather
uncle david is the ceremonial king of hawaii, 12th dan kaito gaku, master of hawaiian art of lua

Just in case the international community does not know...
1) Hawaii has not been ruled by a monarchy for a few generations.

2) "uncle david" has been described as "a joke" on e-budo who tries to make good not on his own abilites, but on his claims of a bloodline and is considered a rather shady charecter by many.

3) "uncle david" has shown no expertise in Japanese language, history, martial arts, etc, or even shown a trip to Japan. In short, despite his claims of royal lineage, in an equilatarian society such as America, he has no more claim to be an expert on what is and is not a Japanese martial art than the typical guest on the Jerry Springer Show.

4) The Saito ryu guys must be pretty deseperate to try to convince people by pointing to a guy like "uncle david" than an established expert on what is and is not a Japanese martial art like Dave Lowry, Karl Friday, Koyama Ryutaro, or any source in Japan. (Not ninjutsu experts even, just a person who can say whether an art is Japanese or not.)

 

[Ihab]

no not desperate, never

we know what we know and thats all that matters

you seem like such an expert, have you ever met any of the saito family, or uncle david
ofcourse you havent, all of what you're saying about them is out of ignorance, and repeating other peoples gossup

i suggest you get your own facts, instead of reapting other peoples words

 

[Bujingodai]

I realize that Don is in Japan, so he can't. But is there a possible friendly meeting that could occur. Between the Kan and Saito clan. Not to justify sweet FA, but maybe to settle things personally.
All the slaggin that goes on, I don't see too many acvtually meeting to sit down and discuss differences in person.

 

[Ihab]

I have to add to what I wrote earlier to don

1- Mr. saito, and uncle David are from the old school
they’re training was done the ancient way, and was not in public

You’re the guy who wants absolute facts

2- you question Mr. saitos training, did you ever ask hanschichi or marry about Mr. saitos training. They’re the ones who knew of his training, do you have any proof that he didn’t train with his grandfather

3- uncle David, I never meant to bring him into this, and I apologize to him for this
do you have proof that he didn’t train with professor chow, or Henry okazaki
do you have proof that he didn’t train in lua which is the priest art

4- as far as him being ceremonial king, any one who knows anything about Hawaiian culture knows that uncle David was named ceremonial king of Hawaii by Hawaiian elders after Hawaii became a state in 1959

please show me absolute proof that none of these things
happened

I’m not looking for what someone said, I need physical proof

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
please show me absolute proof that none of these things
happened

I’m not looking for what someone said, I need physical proof

:lol:

You just can't be serious.

Do you have proof that Ashida Kim did not have a teacher named Shendai? How about Frank Dux's claims of being taught ninjutsu by a mysterious guy named Tanaka? Can you prove that these things did not happen? How about the Illuminati? Do you have proof that it does not exist and is secretly controlling the world?

I expected more of a fight, but in this battle of wits, the other side is unarmed. When they have to try to say that things are true unless anyone can prove them wrong, it just causes everyone to have a good laugh.

Thanks Ihab, I needed that laugh.

 

[Ihab]

so if you cant prove your point, and according to you saito cant prove what he says

why should i believe what you say instead of the saitos
no offense but who the hell are you

your argument is saito is false, how do you know this
your whole argument is based on what you heard
you should not be discrediting the saitos or uncle david if you cant back it up with proof, to me your words dont make sense
and your argument has no basis

please prove it to me

for you, someone told you that saito didnt train so that must mean its true.

if youre going to accuse someone, at least be able to back it up with proof and not just words

i think your type is called kushibushi, or am i wrong
so far youve been all talk, and thats it

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
your argument is saito is false, how do you know this
your whole argument is based on what you heard

What?

What I heard? No, I am talking about how I have never seen any proof backing up what Mark Saito has said. And I also point out that the Japanese he says he got from a native speaker would not have come from one because it is so bad. Thus, he probably lied. Things like that, not "what I heard."

Originally posted by Ihab
for you, someone told you that saito didnt train so that must mean its true.

It is kind of hard to follow someone of your level of intellect from time to time. Please show me where I said I heard that Saito did not train. Go ahead, I dare you. Better yet, how about you show me some proof that Saito trained as he said he did. I could show you years of proof from my martial arts experience, and I am not event he head of a family art like Saito claims.

And thank you for the bad attitude, insults instead of fact and logic and the continuing laughs. :lol:

 

[Ihab]

siato does not speak japanese and had to learn

my point to you is show me saito is a liar as you say he is

and like i said why should i believe you over him

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
siato does not speak japanese and had to learn

my point to you is show me saito is a liar as you say he is

and like i said why should i believe you over him

No, according tot he article Phelps wrote, the terms he used were the ones passed down to him by his native-speaking teacher. Those terms cause native speakers to laugh.

How about we see some proof for Saito's claims instead of trying to put the burdon of proof on those questioning those claims. Why should we trust Saito when there is no proof for his claims in Japan and he makes such increadible errors? Why should we trust anyone like you/ How about some facts I can see for myself? I read Japanese and can't find anything to back up the Saito claim on this side of the pond. other guys like Tony Kehoe have not been able to either. There has been NOTHING presented that can be traced back to an objective source open to all. It all comes down to Saito's word, and his students repeating those lines.

This all sounds like the Ashida Kim folks- "he says he's a ninja and you have to prove he isin't."

 

[Ihab]

ok
i dont know if mr saito sr speaks japanese
mr saito jr is taking japanese lessons

i already told you propably the only one alive who can speak about mr saito sr training is uncle david, they're old friends

what errors are you reffering to

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
i already told you propably the only one alive who can speak about mr saito sr training is uncle david, they're old friends

So you say that they say- but no proof that Mark Saito sr ever learned any sort of martial art from his grandfather as claimed. And everyone I know can show proof that they have trained- even if they are not a grandmaster. Imagine how much stuff you must have by that time, except that Mark Saito sr doesn't seem to have anything like it. Too secret to have any proof like that with their web sites, articles, books, string of dojos, etc.

Originally posted by Ihab
what errors are you reffering to

Where to start? Why don't you go over all the mistakes listed in just this thread alone? And the use of th eterm "Shorinjin" is just hysterical Japanese. No native speaker woudl use it, but Mark Saito sr claims it was the term passed on to him by a native speaker and the "fluent" :rofl: Phelps said that it meant "men of Shaolin" in Japanese. It does not.

There is a start. If you ask me really, really, nicely I can pull out all the numerous mistakes and problems that the Saito ryu story has for everyon here to see. Especially the moderators to see that I am being asked to post this information. So if you want, please, please ask for more.

 

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Don Roley
If you ask me really, really, nicely I can pull out all the numerous mistakes and problems that the Saito ryu story has for everyon here to see. Especially the moderators to see that I am being asked to post this information. So if you want, please, please ask for more.

Personally, I'd like to know more. Please?