Shin Conditioning.

[tradrockrat]

Hey Jimi - there have been more than a few times I've felt like I was banging my head against a wall... LOL


Just gave me a headache:whip:

 

[Thunder Foot]

And I thank you as well sir for a good debate. I guess it's all a matter of extent of conditioning. It most certainly can be extreme, though I'm sure it isn't always so. I agreed that the condidtioning does make it harder, but it doesn't give you armor plated shins - that's the real falsehood. I was a little simplistic in my previous post and you rightly called me on it. The shins aren't completely deadend, but they do take substantially more punnishment when you feel less pain and you go harder for a longer time. More punnishment equals more damage, right? And what we are calling conditioning is actually controlled, systematic punnishment.

I can see that. However if the bone is more dense, it may not be taking damage when used. The shin conditioning is a slow process of gradual hardening. Once toughened, I would believe that it would take something of equal or greater density to do lasting damage... which you are faced with everytime you kick or block. Secondly, to say "systematic punishment" is a bit harsh, hehe. Just like Professional Boxers who train punches for years on end, when they take the gloves off... they aren't able to generate nearly as much power do to weak knuckles, and weak wrists. And thats because their fists are constantly padded, and are never given the chance to be "conditioned". So what good is their boxing skill in that retrospect? :wink1:

Well I can only speak from experience - I used leg kicks extensively in my life and I never broke 'em - and I kicked like a mule Shins already handle plenty of stress. In fact, they ARE tough already! Also, my experience in self defense involved rather short fights compared to my ring experience, so I have no problems stating that conditioned shins have no real benefit for self defense applications. They really only enable you to take more punnishment for a longer time - just not that relevant in self defense cause I don't want to take punnishment for a long time in a real fight. That's what I'm trying to get at I guess.

Hmm... if you've used leg kicks extensively without proper shin conditioning, either you were born with extensively dense bone structure, or you have a high pain tolerance! Naturally, the shins are not "tough"... its something thats acquired, which is the reason that the majority of Thai camps impliment some form of shin conditioning into their regime (otherwise everyone would be able to fight Lumpahnee right?). I think it would be safe to say that one doesn't acquire shins as tough as Thai's without conditioning them . And as far as self defense, I love these discussions! I don't believe the conditioning has anything to do with "taking more punishment", as much as it will enable you to inflict more damage on your opponent. Of course, many are quick to say they would do "this" and "that", but fights are unpredictable... and the reality is you fight how you train. And if one is training Muay Thai with weak shins, that person will fight Muay Thai with weak shins, right?

I guess my main point is that I just don't see a reason to do this unless you wish to fight professionally. JMHO.

Well, for myself anyway... I don't like to do Martial Arts for the sake of doing Martial Arts. If I am going to take time to learn a thai kick, I should be able to throw a thai kick. If I learn a shin check, I should be able to shin check. Thai's place such an importance on strong shins, it just doesn't seem to me that Muay Thai can survive without that conditioning. But thats just my personal opinion.

 

[Jimi]

I understand you, although not all of us will agree that such a high level of shin conditioning is the sole requirement or Muay Thai dies. Did you like any of the suggestions given in favor of shin conditioning, or is that old hat to you? Do you plan to take such a conditioned shin into any amateur or pro fights? Would love to drink a beer a watch it. What do you do for your shins? Does your Kru have shin conditioning for you? I used to roll the coke bottle, kick a roped post, you know the usual badass stuff, back in like 1983. What you guys doing nowa days? PEACE

 

[tradrockrat]

Hmm... if you've used leg kicks extensively without proper shin conditioning, either you were born with extensively dense bone structure, or you have a high pain tolerance! Naturally, the shins are not "tough"... its something thats acquired, which is the reason that the majority of Thai camps impliment some form of shin conditioning into their regime (otherwise everyone would be able to fight Lumpahnee right?). I think it would be safe to say that one doesn't acquire shins as tough as Thai's without conditioning them . And as far as self defense, I love these discussions! I don't believe the conditioning has anything to do with "taking more punishment", as much as it will enable you to inflict more damage on your opponent. Of course, many are quick to say they would do "this" and "that", but fights are unpredictable... and the reality is you fight how you train. And if one is training Muay Thai with weak shins, that person will fight Muay Thai with weak shins, right?

Well here's the crux of the matter - by training on the sheilds and fighting in the ring, my shins did get conditioning, just not as much as the guy with the coke bottles. My shins are no tougher naturally than anybody elses.

1992 - I was the ABA National freesparing champion 160 -169 lb. weight class (lower belt)- I won by kicking the crap out of my opponents legs. If they checked me, I smashed 'em anyway. Fought 7 fights to win it. Now this is not the same as our full contact kickboxing championships (Bama Lethwei) held later in the year, but leg kicks are fully legal and utilized.

As for training Muay Thai with weak shins, it is my experience that they will not be weak for long - just by kicking hard sheilds and sparring (and occasionally trading kicks with your sparring partners - was I really that dumb? ) they will toughen up enough to fight well - just not enough to fight at a professional level - in that I agree with you.

EDIT: I too am curious as to the actual conditioning techniques used today - I'm an old man now (34) so I'm a little out of touch.

 

[Jimi]

Hey, another good conditioning application is to toughen your equipment so to speak. Don't use the softer & lighter Thai Pads(Not to be confussed Pad Thai) use really tight dense ones. If you own your heavy bag and are not pressed by taking the original stuffing out, line it well, and add any amount of sand to it. Don't need beach grade or pool filter sand, just like driveway sand. Then allow the sand to get wet, it will set not unlike concrete, tough on the shins alright. Hey Tradrockrat, I was training with another one of Jons students, my teacher you know him, and he had a heavy bag with some sand in it along with some original stuffing, it was tight *** hell & had so much mass it would hardly swing when hit. My shins ached, but later that helped me also win in competition in Annapolis 1995 Black Belt super heavy weight Bronze Medalist Burmese Freefighting. Only bronze I know, but other guys came out of that competition with injured ankles, knees & jaw. I was lucky not to have taken a lasting injury. Oh wait, you were there that year, duh. I believe you get a fair amount of conditioning just by participating, training on tough gear, tough partners shins/elbows, it put my shins above average, but not to the level of such hardcore shin splitting conditioning. If I run into a tougher shin than mine in the street, I gotta wonder why someone who conditions so much to keep Muay Thai alive is disrespecting it so by coming at ME in the street. Wonder what an Ajarn Kru would think? That kills its honor in my book, such kickboxing from Muay & Lethwei are known as the skills of Royal Boxers. Why throw it into the back alley? Unless some people think that's where it belongs, in the gutter with descent folk.LOL. I'd love to hear others opinions on what they do for conditioning, even if just to a moderate level of toughness, Come on people, let's hear it! PEACE

 

[lll000000lll]

i have been conditioning my shins now for about two weeks. it is killing me. lol i tried kicking a wooden dowel, I've tried logs and target hand pads taped to the wooden dummy.

the 1st week i was just kick hard solid wood and it wasn't really doing anything but causing bruises so that's when i decided to tape some hand pads to the wooden dowel and start over.

from my experience I'd rather do it the safest way possible. after all i would like to have use of my legs when i get older. my suggestion to anyone trying to toughen up your shins do it right, do it safe. save yourself the bruises. lol

 

[Thunder Foot]

I understand you, although not all of us will agree that such a high level of shin conditioning is the sole requirement or Muay Thai dies. Did you like any of the suggestions given in favor of shin conditioning, or is that old hat to you? Do you plan to take such a conditioned shin into any amateur or pro fights? Would love to drink a beer a watch it. What do you do for your shins? Does your Kru have shin conditioning for you? I used to roll the coke bottle, kick a roped post, you know the usual badass stuff, back in like 1983. What you guys doing nowa days? PEACE

Well, we have a few ways to go about it. Nothing that varies too differently from what you're probably used to. We roll a pin up and down our shins. The pin is wrapped in a towel for beginners. We also defend using our shins against the shinai and stick to simulate a thai kick. Then we have bags as well... sand filled banana bag, and an iron filings filled banana bag, and a suspended medicine ball. We also kick thai pads, as some of you have stated also condition the shin.

 

[Jimi]

I like the idea of a sand filled banana bag, and iron filings, wow. I would hate to have to hang that kinda bag by myself, would weigh a ton. LOL. I think thats cool. PEACE

 

[Thunder Foot]

Yes, its definitely heavy. It could be a mixture of iron filings AND sand, however when i asked, I was told it was just iron. I don't even know how they got it up. I remember when I was first transitioning from the sand to the iron bag, I sprained my foot from improper kicking. Trying to contact on the low part of the shin, my foot would often make little contact. Just enough to sprain it however. Since then, my foots toughened up, hehe.

 

[savior]

Get plastic surgery and implant titanium on top of your shin... THAT is "hardcore"