Shaolin Monks

[rickster]

Whenever there are subjects of controversy, it is expected to see how offensive some are.

And, with this, those to finger point towards others for bringing up the controversy.

Yes. the data is overwhelming on "one side"

But, again I have to reiterate;

Think of these references/resources I had listed as a motion picture or a book.

Think of me as a film or book critic.

Then, it is up to you, to either accept or reject my reflections.

Or, more importantly, it is up to you, to look at the movie or book (those references/resources)

Like anything, research goes a long way.

It would be up to the reader/researcher to accept (or reject) the data;

 

[oaktree]

Hi Rickster,
You do bring quite alot of material to read and I think you are truly passionate or deeply interested in the subject.
I wouldn't completely reject the sources you listed and maybe Xiaolin monks are not the same as in the Song dynasty but I'd like to think not everyone or everything
with Xiaolin is involved in a great conspiracy to rake in profits.

I like to quote words from the Abott: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/ft/2011/09/lunch_with_the_abbot_of_the_shaolin_temple.html

dozen million renminbi" in annual income comes from tickets sold to the roughly 2 million tourists that visit the site every year. The temple keeps 30 percent of the ticket revenues and hands 70 percent over to the local government.

Xiaolin makes about 2 million usd in which 70% is about $1,400,000 given to government, Xiaolin keep 30% $600,000 annually 50,000 a month 12,500 a week $1,786 a day. So lets say they have 500 people that means each person a day gets 21rmb($3.50) a day. Its not really rich but its not that poor you can get a decent life on it.

-南无阿弥陀佛

 

[Big Don]

Late to the party and to lazy to read the whole thread, but, "Why do bikers wear leather?"
Because Chiffon wrinkles...

 

[rickster]

Hi Rickster,
You do bring quite alot of material to read and I think you are truly passionate or deeply interested in the subject.
I wouldn't completely reject the sources you listed and maybe Xiaolin monks are not the same as in the Song dynasty but I'd like to think not everyone or everything
with Xiaolin is involved in a great conspiracy to rake in profits.

I like to quote words from the Abott: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/ft/2011/09/lunch_with_the_abbot_of_the_shaolin_temple.html

Xiaolin makes about 2 million usd in which 70% is about $1,400,000 given to government, Xiaolin keep 30% $600,000 annually 50,000 a month 12,500 a week $1,786 a day. So lets say they have 500 people that means each person a day gets 21rmb($3.50) a day. Its not really rich but its not that poor you can get a decent life on it.

-南无阿弥陀佛

Well I would not go out on a limb and state the current abbot is on a profit conspiracy;

The current abbot is not a "Authentic Shaolin Monk" because he is more a figure head controlled by the government. (One of the many reasons why the Dalai Lama of Tibet hasn’t returned-controlled figure head)

Now, before people get more upset, I shall explain further.

Yes, the current abbot shall very well be a Buddhist.

Speaking to other Buddhists from many sects including Chan/Chen/Zen, there is nothing inheritably wrong in receiving donations for a good cause. After all, Buddhists have been known to carry in their possession and item called the patra/patta, or the “begging bowl” for centuries

Notice how I said a “good cause”.

Shaolin, as well as Chinese martial arts, are under tight control by the PRC. So much under control, that people are forced to use the term Guoshou/Koushou (in some places, “Wu Shu&#8221. Hence, even current martial artists, per not of Shaolin, are equally controlled (Which is why many masters fled mainland China and ended up in places like Tawain, the Philippines, etc.)

The term I use “Authentic” is thus explained;

Because of “control” by the PRC, Shaolin can never, once again be along its authentic state.

Shaolin’s beginning was isolation and beyond government control. Why do you think it was built in a remote mountain region instead of near any city? In its earliest times, the Chinese government had an Asian thing about not treading on religions or religious associations. Welcoming all types of religion could have been a way for high officials to think they can cover all bases going to heaven.

Therefore, Shaolin was not controlled or forced by any other outside influences. It was like a deity all upon its own. This is “Authentic Shaolin”. Pure, simple, not to be hindered, nor controlled, by anyone.

And thus, was the demised of “Authentic Shaolin”. The Chinese had to destroy it and other temples of “self-reliance”. And they did so by getting “inside help”. Thus, governments could save face. (I state governments-plural, per era/regimes constantly destroying and others regimes constantly had it rebuilt to a point, it was left in destitution/desolation)

Then bam! With an upsurge in interest, the recent regime nearly ¾ of a century going strong, realized it had marketing/profit potential.

So yes, I do believe the current abbot isn’t getting a profit-the PRC is.
This is not a good cause, this is exploitation.
("Authentic Shaolin", was never intended to be "exploited in such a way)

Current “Shaolin Performers”, er monks do train hard and acquire skill. But this is controlled skill by the PRC, thus can never be considered “authentic”

For example, if anyone should make a Katana sword using the latest steel, or any synthetic material, then the sword, is a sword, but never could be a “Authentic Katana” (BTW, there exists a rare few craftsmen in Japan which uses the old manufacturing methods, thus these could be considered as “Authentic”, but not “Antiquity&#8221

But, again I have to reiterate;

Think of these references/resources I had listed as a motion picture or a book.

Think of me as a film or book critic.

Then, it is up to you, to either accept or reject my reflections.

Or, more importantly, it is up to you, to look at the movie or book (those references/resources)

Like anything, research goes a long way.

It would be up to the reader/researcher to accept (or reject) the data;

 

[chinto]

I would have to agree that with the PRC control of the personnel and grounds that it is not what it is claimed to be, but a money maker for that government.

as to what is taught, I would say it is suspect for the same reason.

 

[Flying Crane]

well, my first sifu told me that when he first went to Shaolin and demonstrated a form that he learned from Sifu Wong Jack Man, and afterwards one of the old monks said privately to him, "I remember when we USED TO do that here..." All my first sifu saw there was modern wushu.

 

[rickster]

well, my first sifu told me that when he first went to Shaolin and demonstrated a form that he learned from Sifu Wong Jack Man, and afterwards one of the old monks said privately to him, "I remember when we USED TO do that here..." All my first sifu saw there was modern wushu.

How quaint that those monks ad lied to him.

They might have been impressed or surprised by him, and did not say it.

Thus they wanted him to think they had the same skills.

 

[clfsean]

well, my first sifu told me that when he first went to Shaolin and demonstrated a form that he learned from Sifu Wong Jack Man, and afterwards one of the old monks said privately to him, "I remember when we USED TO do that here..." All my first sifu saw there was modern wushu.

You oughta talk to Gene Ching over at Kung Fu magazine & forum. He was one of the early on's going to Shaolin. He went not long after Matt Polly got back. He was also one of Wing Lam's senior BSL people at the time. He can provide first hand experiences about living/visiting & learning there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.

 

[Flying Crane]

How quaint that those monks ad lied to him.

They might have been impressed or surprised by him, and did not say it.

Thus they wanted him to think they had the same skills.

I'm not sure you understood the message of what I just said.

The old monk (I think this might have been back in the late 1980s or so) was saying that, back before the government took over Shaolin, they used to practice viable martial arts, and he remembered those days from when he was young. Now that the government has taken over, nobody at Shaolin practices viable martial arts anymore, they only practice modern wushu. Which itself was closer to being a viable martial art back in the 1950s thru 1970s, but has become less so over time.

 

[lklawson]

I'm not sure you understood the message of what I just said.

The old monk (I think this might have been back in the late 1980s or so) was saying that, back before the government took over Shaolin, they used to practice viable martial arts, and he remembered those days from when he was young. Now that the government has taken over, nobody at Shaolin practices viable martial arts anymore, they only practice modern wushu. Which itself was closer to being a viable martial art back in the 1950s thru 1970s, but has become less so over time.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the gent was not a Buddhist monk.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

Of course, that doesn't mean that the gent was not a Buddhist monk.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

no, I never suggested he is or is not a buddhist monk. I only say that I don't take it as a lie that the man told my sifu that he remembers the days when they practiced viable martial arts. Whether or not he remembers that specific form, I think is kinda beside the point.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Like anything, research goes a long way.

It would be up to the reader/researcher to accept (or reject) the data;

And like anything when researching things Chinese it is best to do it in the written Chinese language and better yet in the written traditional chinese language...

Do you read either of those?

 

[WingChunIan]

This thread has really given me a good laugh, some folks need to watch less TV and get out more. The shaolin temple today has two very contrasting parts, the tourist centre and the old monastry (adjacent to the burial grounds). The demonstrations are given by what can only be described as children (teenagers at best), however there are still monks there and the monastry part is still a practising monastry. If we leave behind the realms of fantasy and movies and dwell in reality for a second, shaolin is not a religion, it is a name given to a monastry / temple because of its location. The religion observed at the temple as far back as is recorded is buddhism. Therefore any buddhist monk emmanating from the temple is a shaolin monk. The temple itself has been destroyed and rebuilt many times in its history, the monks today like clerics of any religion come in all shapes and sizes with different levels of devotion and yes there is a heavy government influence over the public display area, do the monks all behave like grasshopper - of course not, did they ever? Martial arts practice has been a part of the history of the temple for a long time and the arts practised have evolved and changed over time, what is practised today in public is very much Wu Shu but equally I saw groups practising animal styles. One can of course challenge whether the martial arts on show are authentic shaolin martial arts and I am not in a position to comment, but questioning the authenticity of the monks themselves?

 

[Xue Sheng]

yeah yeah yeah....Shaolin is mostly show these days..... it is mostly modern Wushu.... and any fighting they do is sports sanshou....nothing new here.... this is old news.....

Yup Buddhism was the religion at Shaolin but just because you are at Shaolin it does not make you Buddhist.... there are all sorts of people at shaolin for various reasons for various lengths of time..... some are there because the feel it will give them a better chance at getting into the military others are there because they want to eat, some to move to America and bilk as many Americans as the can out of $$$ and there are multiple reasons in between.... Kwai Chan Caine is not there and as a matter of fact likely would have never been there...he was not 100% Chinese.

This is not new, this is not shocking, and this is not breaking news.....we know this.... Wudang is well on its way to being just like it and it looks like Chenjiagou may be next on the PRC hit parade

Do you speak Chinese and if so what dialect?
Do you read Chinese, if so simplified and/or traditional?

EDIT

and if this helps....wǒ huì shuō yìdiǎn pǔtōnghuà...... yeah I know, its not Chinese characters

 

[rickster]

Yeah Yeah Yeah...Pose with Mickey and Goofy..afterall when you go to Disney Land, its where all your fantasies come true.

 

[Chris Parker]

Rickster, go back and re-read this thread. You are saying that everyone can make up their own mind, based on the evidence they see and research... but if anyone disagrees with you, or comes to a different understanding, they're living in a fantasy world with Mickey Mouse and Goofy?!?!

You have your take on things, based on what you choose to believe. Cool. But your information seems as biased as anything else, frankly. So perhaps you could back up a bit, and either follow your own advice, or simply get over it. And yourself. You sound like you could have a lot to offer, but at the moment, no-one really wants to listen to you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah Yeah Yeah...Pose with Mickey and Goofy..afterall when you go to Disney Land, its where all your fantasies come true.

Can you read English? Or is it you just trying to avoid answering the question which will seriously undermine you credibility

You are apparently not reading anything I wrote or just being argumentative to avoid answering the question. And let me say this and then agree with CLF on his assessment of you

You keep yelling research and you keep talking about the fantasy of Shaolin..... I pretty much agreed with you but you then tell me to go to Disneyland to get my picture taken with Mickey and Goofy so I am at this point fairly certain you are at least 85% troll

Now since you are telling everyone to do the research lets discuss research for a minute..... Unless you can read Chinese and speak Chinese virtually any SERIOUS research is not possible. So then you are basing your research on hear say and the belief in what others are translating.

Now I will ask this make the font a bit bigger and make it red so it is hard to miss, in a hope to get an answer to this question that I have asked 2 times already and I know has been asked of you by someone else at least 2 times as well.

If you want to be taken seriously stop acting like a troll and answer the questions

1) Do you speak Chinese?
2) If you speak Chinese what Dialect?
3) Do you read Chinese characters?
4) If so simplified, traditional or both?

But then if in fact you cannot understand English (and I am pretty sure you can) then you will again give an inflammatory answer or is that just because you are avoiding answering the question

Now lets see if you can read Chinese

您讲德语
Now what does that say?

Not that it really matters at this point because I am pretty sure

Ni bu hui shuo putong hua
Now....

Any serious research into things Chinese history, especially things Chinese Martial arts, you need to be able to read Chinese or have access to someone you trust that can or have damn good sources in translation and generally more than one.

So if you can’t read or speak Chinese then the next best thing to ask is

What or who are your sources?

 

[chinto]

I'm not sure you understood the message of what I just said.

The old monk (I think this might have been back in the late 1980s or so) was saying that, back before the government took over Shaolin, they used to practice viable martial arts, and he remembered those days from when he was young. Now that the government has taken over, nobody at Shaolin practices viable martial arts anymore, they only practice modern wushu. Which itself was closer to being a viable martial art back in the 1950s thru 1970s, but has become less so over time.

considering the efforts to maintain control and the Chinese people in " their place" by the PRC's communist government for many years, as in since their revolution in the late 1940's, I would be very surprised if they allowed the monks to teach "real efficient effective versions of the Shaolin arts to people! They have gone to some pretty long lengths to gain control of what martial arts and how they are taught in the PRC!! they now spend more money then on their military to maintain that control!!! and they spend more then we do on their military!