All Martial Arts are Descended From Shaolin
- Thread starter Thesemindz
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I saw a you tube video with Steve Mohammed insisting all martial arts were STOLEN from Africa, (IIRC he said "The Black Man")by the Chinese.
Here is the thing, words mean things, Martialfrom Dictionary.com)–adjective 1. inclined or disposed to war; warlike: The ancient Romans were a martial people. 2. of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music. 3. characteristic of or befitting a warrior: a martial stride.
Well lord knows there was a lot of African/Chinese interaction pre-Qin Dynasty (221 BCE - 206 BCE) so they certainly had the opportunity
David Weatherly
Black Belt
Marginal
Senior Master
If you do want to talk to this guy again, here's some ammo, quoted directly from the Shaolin Temple Scriptures(Vol 1, pg 8):
The fighting techniques were not originated during the era of the Six dynasties. There were some grand masters in the era of the Chou and Chin dynasties [1122BCE-206BCE, for those of you not up on the history of Chinese Dynasties] but they were more proficient in the fencing techniques rather than the barehanded fighting techniques.
Since the Era of the Han, Jin, Sue, and Tan dynasty the martial arts were more popular. It was told in the story of the travelling swordsman of Tai Si Gong, ad the story of the Occultist of Han book. Some masters were famous for their sword techniques.
.....[skipping it a bit because I'm tired]
The fighting techniques have been developed sophistically even in the year of the Song Yuen Dynasty. And so Da Mo, who introduced the original techniques of the Shaolin, can not be credited as the patriarch of the martial arts. Also at the time most of the famous masters were regular people. Monks were never heard of as to having good fighting techniques.
So, in short, the Shaolin don't even claim such nonsense. It seems to me that the claims usually come from people who do Shaolin or "Shaolin" forms, who have no real connection to the Shaolin temple, grasping vainly for credibilty.
The fighting techniques were not originated during the era of the Six dynasties. There were some grand masters in the era of the Chou and Chin dynasties [1122BCE-206BCE, for those of you not up on the history of Chinese Dynasties] but they were more proficient in the fencing techniques rather than the barehanded fighting techniques.
Since the Era of the Han, Jin, Sue, and Tan dynasty the martial arts were more popular. It was told in the story of the travelling swordsman of Tai Si Gong, ad the story of the Occultist of Han book. Some masters were famous for their sword techniques.
.....[skipping it a bit because I'm tired]
The fighting techniques have been developed sophistically even in the year of the Song Yuen Dynasty. And so Da Mo, who introduced the original techniques of the Shaolin, can not be credited as the patriarch of the martial arts. Also at the time most of the famous masters were regular people. Monks were never heard of as to having good fighting techniques.
So, in short, the Shaolin don't even claim such nonsense. It seems to me that the claims usually come from people who do Shaolin or "Shaolin" forms, who have no real connection to the Shaolin temple, grasping vainly for credibilty.
The first martial art was the use of elephant tusks or *** bones by the cave men who then drew about it. I know, because I watch Geico commercials!! In fact, I have studied Shaolin for 20 of my 32 years and yes it does predate many martial arts. But, martial arts have been around in various forms since the time man first had to defend against both animals and himself! More fascinating to me, and I started this awhile back in another thread, is the myriad ways both swords and sword fighting developed differently depending upon environment, culture, etc.
This is a specious argument, like trying to decide who was the first to run naked in the woods. I know, many of you would assert Adam and Eve, but I know that was not true....LOL!
This is a specious argument, like trying to decide who was the first to run naked in the woods. I know, many of you would assert Adam and Eve, but I know that was not true....LOL!
bowser666
2nd Black Belt
What came first the chicken or Shaolin ? Or was it the Shaolin then the egg ? I get confused every time i try to figure it out. To be honest who cares. I train in Shaolin Kung Fu and it doesn't matter to me that Pankration, Boxing, Wrestling, Silat, or many other styles came first. WHo cares ? I am just happy and priveledged enough to be able to train in it.
I guess its human nature/insecurity to want to have bragging rights about being first. As I stated earlier maybe it was Chuck Norris who time travelled back in time and taught Buddha how to throw a insane roundhouse kick and thats how it started ? yeah < i like that theory the best of all. Time to post some BS You Tube video footage of it happening and then it will become gospel !!! YAY !!
I guess its human nature/insecurity to want to have bragging rights about being first. As I stated earlier maybe it was Chuck Norris who time travelled back in time and taught Buddha how to throw a insane roundhouse kick and thats how it started ? yeah < i like that theory the best of all. Time to post some BS You Tube video footage of it happening and then it will become gospel !!! YAY !!
OP
OP
Kata and the transmission of knowledge in traditional martial arts by Michael Rosenbaum has an excellent bit about the evolution of bladed weapons and how it correlates to the culture and the attributes of the enemy.
-Rob
I just smile at these types.
If they continue or will not let it drop, I ask them if they are religious. If yes, then I ask them if Able was upset with the martial art that Cain learned and used on him? If not religious I just ask them if the first humans were all pacifists or maybe they learned to fight to defend themselves or to win the most food or ..., .
Then I smile and walk away.
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OP
OP
I just smile at these types.
If the continue or will not let it drop, I ask them if they are religious. If yes, then I ask them if Able was upset with the martial art that Cain learned and used on him? If not religious I just ask them if the first humans were all pacifists or maybe they learned to fight to defend themselves or to win the most food or ..., .
Then I smile and walk away.
Ha! Hilarious.
-Rob
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
In fairness, what (reasonably substantial but not at the level of others here) research I've done supports the claim somewhat.
There's lots of folks who believe that the arm of fighting styles most westerners think of a 'martial arts' (i.e., karate, tae kwon do and kung fu) evolved from the shaolin temple.
Of course, the story goes that they got it from India -- so nobody gets bragging rights.
Also, it completely ignores the existence of pankration, boxing, savate, silat, kali and phukyu (the irishh martial art -- mostly headbutting your friends and vomiting on them while drunk).
Also also, I'm a kenpo guy and my information sources tend to support that theory.
There's lots of folks who believe that the arm of fighting styles most westerners think of a 'martial arts' (i.e., karate, tae kwon do and kung fu) evolved from the shaolin temple.
Of course, the story goes that they got it from India -- so nobody gets bragging rights.
Also, it completely ignores the existence of pankration, boxing, savate, silat, kali and phukyu (the irishh martial art -- mostly headbutting your friends and vomiting on them while drunk).
Also also, I'm a kenpo guy and my information sources tend to support that theory.
DavidCC
Master of Arts
Wrestling, kendo, iaido, ninjitsu, sumo, kyodo, all sorts of fencing variations, jousting, archery, gladiators, chariots, pistol dueling, quarte staff, Shillelagh, capoeria, etc. Probably thousands of systems over thousands of years from all over the world.
"All martial arts come from Shaolin" only works if you only count Kung Fu, Karate and Tae Kwon Do branches, and even then it is rather sketchy.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
It doesn't even work then. Not all CMA styles come from Shaolin. There were a lot of martial arts in China prior to Shaolin and there was more than one time Japan got stuff from China and more than one place.
One example of a CMA that is Pre-Shaolin by a long shot
Shuaijiao
Shaolin
And there are many other Chinese Martial Arts Styles that do not come from Shaolin and were around prior to Shaolin.
Amen, X. Note in particular the comment in the second of Xue's links:
We seem to have this need for neat, tidy stories in the MAs, but the reality is almost always much messier and more complex... like the rest of reality, eh? There are probably hundreds of family styles that never shared a latitude line with any influence from Shaolin. It's a huge country with a huge population even way, way back—almost like a subcontinent rather than a single country. What would be astonishing is if that entire mosaic of MA styles could be traced back to a single epicenter... that would be amazing. The burden of proof on such a claim would be (and is) huge, and I don't see it being met, MA folklore notwithstanding.
Shaolin Kung Fu refers to a collection of Chinese martial arts that claim affiliation with the Shaolin Monastery. Of the tens of thousands of kung fu wushu styles, several hundred might have some relationship to Shaolin; however, aside from a few very well known systems, such as Xiao Hong Quan, the Da Hong Quan, Yin Shou Gun, Damo Sword, etc., it would be almost impossible to establish a verifiable connection to the Temple for any one particular art.
We seem to have this need for neat, tidy stories in the MAs, but the reality is almost always much messier and more complex... like the rest of reality, eh? There are probably hundreds of family styles that never shared a latitude line with any influence from Shaolin. It's a huge country with a huge population even way, way back—almost like a subcontinent rather than a single country. What would be astonishing is if that entire mosaic of MA styles could be traced back to a single epicenter... that would be amazing. The burden of proof on such a claim would be (and is) huge, and I don't see it being met, MA folklore notwithstanding.
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Ronin74
Brown Belt
Are you sure it was Sinanju? I thought it was the Fist of the North Star... lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokuto_Shinken
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokuto_Shinken
Clearly mere imitators...
Only slightly less derivative than the masked dancers of ninjitsu.
Hua To did have a bird (cock, specifically) form... So technically the chicken DID come before Shaolin!
Plus again, the Shaolin themselves don't claim to be the founders of the martial arts, so the claim really has no valitidy.
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