Two cheers for The Troops, anyway. As a group they still seem to have that little rape problem and don't seem inclined to do jack about it. There has to be leadership at the top. But there should be some kind of human decency at the bottom.
Sexual Assaults involving the Armed Forces
- Thread starter tellner
- Start date
Sorry, but not to say that rape period is ok. It certainly isn't and those who do that to another deserve the same in return. However, a small focus is not a judgement for all.
For example, when I was stationed on Lejeune there were 36,000 on station not counting those on deployment. So let's say in that a crime is committed: Rape, drug trafficing, assault. Those were the top three. Combined you see 300 get busted over a 12 month period. That is less than 1%.
Look at the news on a daily basis in a metropolitan area like St. Louis. In North St. Louis County alone there is more crime than that in a week. Sorry not a fair comparison.....just an easy target.
Again, I must say in all sincerity that crime is never under any circumstances ok at all, the military just seems to be an easy target.
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This thread is intended to pay tribute to the U.S. Marine. Please take off-topic posts regarding sexual assaults within or involving members of the U.S. Armed Forces to a different thread.
Mod Note
Topic split from "The Marine" thread in Bar & Grill.
Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator
Topic split from "The Marine" thread in Bar & Grill.
Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator
I usually find little to disagree with in Tellners posts and the linked article seems quite serious but I find it hard to imagine that such a terrible situation can exist in a military organisation.
I know quite a few old and ex-squaddies and whilst they can, for 'civvie' tastes, be quite alarmingly racist and sexist, I have no doubt that anyone in one of their units, who committed something as bad as a rape of one of their own female fellows, would think themselves lucky to still be moving when the MP's arrived.
That 'rough justice' mindset is particularly prevalent in the Sergeants I know, as they naturally think of the effect on the unit as a whole as well as the individuals 'involved'.
To elaborate a little, in the British army there is a lot of what the private soldier politely refers to as '********' - this is such tedious mundanities as keeping shiny kit shiny and non-shiny kit orderly and clean. If one member of a unit fails in this, ridiculous as it sounds to we non-military types, then the whole unit takes punishment.
An oft repeated tale I've heard from every NCO I've known is that if they have a 'lazy' soldier on their hands then they take him behind the barracks and 'explain' it to him until he understands. This is despite the fact that in these modern times they're not supposed to physically discipline the troops. Now if they do that for a non-shined cap badge, what on earth are they going to do for a serious felony?
That's why I find it hard to countenance that such an endemic 'problem' can grow unseen. There is of course the ever present truth that the stresses and strains of irregular warfare can bring out the worst in men but still ...
I know quite a few old and ex-squaddies and whilst they can, for 'civvie' tastes, be quite alarmingly racist and sexist, I have no doubt that anyone in one of their units, who committed something as bad as a rape of one of their own female fellows, would think themselves lucky to still be moving when the MP's arrived.
That 'rough justice' mindset is particularly prevalent in the Sergeants I know, as they naturally think of the effect on the unit as a whole as well as the individuals 'involved'.
To elaborate a little, in the British army there is a lot of what the private soldier politely refers to as '********' - this is such tedious mundanities as keeping shiny kit shiny and non-shiny kit orderly and clean. If one member of a unit fails in this, ridiculous as it sounds to we non-military types, then the whole unit takes punishment.
An oft repeated tale I've heard from every NCO I've known is that if they have a 'lazy' soldier on their hands then they take him behind the barracks and 'explain' it to him until he understands. This is despite the fact that in these modern times they're not supposed to physically discipline the troops. Now if they do that for a non-shined cap badge, what on earth are they going to do for a serious felony?
That's why I find it hard to countenance that such an endemic 'problem' can grow unseen. There is of course the ever present truth that the stresses and strains of irregular warfare can bring out the worst in men but still ...
Take a look at rape stats from any major college campus, I'll lay money they dwarf those from the armed services.
Lamont
Lamont
A correction to the story from the 'rape problem' link. I don't know how many more are to follow. I was specifically looking for this quote after reading the author's story a second time. I didn't find it until I followed the link below. This fix takes away some of the general condemnation of all men in the Army.
http://archive.salon.com/letters/corrections/2007/index.html#female_soldiers
The March 6 story "The private war of women soldiers" originally included the following statement from National Guard soldier Demond Mullins: "Rapes were happening every night...Married men were doing it, everyone." Mullins says that he misspoke and was also misunderstood by the reporter. The statement has been deleted.
[Correction made 3/7/07]
http://archive.salon.com/letters/corrections/2007/index.html#female_soldiers
The March 6 story "The private war of women soldiers" originally included the following statement from National Guard soldier Demond Mullins: "Rapes were happening every night...Married men were doing it, everyone." Mullins says that he misspoke and was also misunderstood by the reporter. The statement has been deleted.
[Correction made 3/7/07]
You forget though that even one rape is too many and that the structure of the services is significantly different than that of the average college campus. If a college student reports a rape, he/she can usually finish her education and get on with life and have hope of justice....if a female service member reports a rape if can derail her whole career in the services and she has little hope of justice, especially if the assault involved a higher ranking official...one need only to talk to come of the victims to see this is the norm and not the exception...
Sorry,
I have absolutely one thing to say......:bs:
I helped and saw a lot of these investigations of rape........99% of the time it was an unscrouplous female and a few times male who wasn't getting their way about something so they would tell a story which was a lie.
Yep. When I was in the Marines, we used to employ the infamous blanket party for the "*********" as we called them. Anyone who's seen Full Metal Jacket knows how the blanket party works.
grydth
Senior Master
Really? I was a military prosecutor. Some examples: I once prosecuted a monster for abusing an 8 year old girl and sent him to Leavenworth for years. (I now have an 8 year old daughter.) I prosecuted a senior NCO for getting soldiers drunk and then sodomizing them - and put him out of the service. I went after yet another for grotesque sexual mistreatment of women under his command and I got him, too.
There was never any tolerance of these crimes by the chain of command. I know - I stood up for the victims. My experience comes from court room work - where does yours come from?
By contrast, read the current article on CNN Law about the ordeal of Liz Seccuro, whose reports of a gang sexual assault at the University of Virginia were casually blown off. A conviction of one guy was only obtained after he confessed many years later. Yeah, read how easy it has been for that woman to get on with life. Lucky she wasn't in the Army!
grydth
Senior Master
Blanket parties are not justice, they're lynchings.
In a rare moment of courage, I actually helped stop one on these things. The guy was no criminal, just a nerd who probably should never have been in the service. But he didn't deserve that.
Much as I strongly differ with the thread author who slurs our soldiers as sex criminals, this type of behavior is not the answer, either.
It is good to have a voice with actual experience from the legal side to add to the substance of the thread, grydth.
I concur that the 'blanket party' as portrayed in the film was a chilling affair but I do differ in the level of severity you attribute to it. After all, these fellows are not training to be bank clerks and very few soldiers I've known have been shrinking violets. For an involuntary soldier to be so treated would be wrong, yes, I fully agree. A volunteer one, however, should know beforehand what was expected.
Then again, I'm speaking from a British perspective where, rather than the psychologically worse punishment of the unit beating them, those that will not make the effort are 'encouraged' by the NCO's.
I concur that the 'blanket party' as portrayed in the film was a chilling affair but I do differ in the level of severity you attribute to it. After all, these fellows are not training to be bank clerks and very few soldiers I've known have been shrinking violets. For an involuntary soldier to be so treated would be wrong, yes, I fully agree. A volunteer one, however, should know beforehand what was expected.
Then again, I'm speaking from a British perspective where, rather than the psychologically worse punishment of the unit beating them, those that will not make the effort are 'encouraged' by the NCO's.
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