Sexual Allegations against the older Lopez brothers USA Today

[Gwai Lo Dan]

The temptation is to think "How could this happen? Why wouldn't the victim report the first incident?* Why would they continue to associate with their attacker? Why would they be alone with him after the first time?"

What the person asking these questions is missing is the pervasive effects of what is sometimes called "rape culture." Complaints are often ignored or dismissed and negative consequences may be brought to bear on those who speak up. Perpetrators are often in positions of power ...

When I saw "Self-Defence" on the school poster a few weeks back, I got thinking about the role of a TKD school in terms of teaching kids to protect themselves with more than just hitting back.

Many schools advertise "self-defence" but never talk about for example about not helping an adult find a puppy, or yelling for help in an assault, or after an assault, telling someone they trust even if the perpetrator said bad things would happen if he/she talked.

Do you guys ever talk in class about the ugly reality that adults may do bad things, and to tell someone? Or is that too personal and outside "self-defence"?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When I saw "Self-Defence" on the school poster a few weeks back, I got thinking about the role of a TKD school in terms of teaching kids to protect themselves with more than just hitting back.

Many schools advertise "self-defence" but never talk about for example about not helping an adult find a puppy, or yelling for help in an assault, or after an assault, telling someone they trust even if the perpetrator said bad things would happen if he/she talked.

Do you guys ever talk in class about the ugly reality that adults may do bad things, and to tell someone? Or is that too personal and outside "self-defence"?

I don't teach kids, so that's not an issue for me. If I did run a kids class I'd want to do some research on best practices for addressing those kinds of situations.

 

[Buka]

When I saw "Self-Defence" on the school poster a few weeks back, I got thinking about the role of a TKD school in terms of teaching kids to protect themselves with more than just hitting back.

Many schools advertise "self-defence" but never talk about for example about not helping an adult find a puppy, or yelling for help in an assault, or after an assault, telling someone they trust even if the perpetrator said bad things would happen if he/she talked.

Do you guys ever talk in class about the ugly reality that adults may do bad things, and to tell someone? Or is that too personal and outside "self-defence"?

When I used to teach kids we covered as many scenarios as we could think of. Usually started with the "Okay, how can I get you near my car?" The lost puppy bit, the "do you know this kid" photo, asking for directions, faking sick or hurt, "want some tickets to the football game?" impersonating a police officer, what a secondary crime scene was, etc. Also, we were in Boston, where sex scandal amongst the clergy was the norm not the exception, we covered that too. The kids were eleven and up (usually), not sure how to apply any of this to little ones.

All parents were were aware of how we did things (before the fact) All approved.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Interesting, thanks.

 

[TrueJim]

Do you guys ever talk in class about the ugly reality that adults may do bad things, and to tell someone? Or is that too personal and outside "self-defence"?

For the very small children, we role-play that sort of thing frequently. "Can you help me find my puppy? Your mom sent me to find you." We teach the kids to resist and call for help. For the older kids and adults, we talk briefly about avoiding risky scenarios and verbally de-escalating confrontations. We could be doing more, but (for better or worse) self-defense isn't a big part of our curriculum - only the adults and long-term kids get actual self-defense lessons.

 

[Tez3]

We do the 'stranger danger' training but the biggest problem is that most child abuse is done by people known to the child. All the martial arts associations here have child protection policies, this is to safeguard children and adults while training as well as teaching stranger danger and the importance of no one touching anywhere a swimsuit goes on a child etc but it also covers dealing with children who you think may be abused or if they confide in you, there's recognised procedures to take.

This is a good site, there's good resources on many issues people may come across. There's Safeguarding in martial arts | CPSU

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We do the 'stranger danger' training but the biggest problem is that most child abuse is done by people known to the child. All the martial arts associations here have child protection policies, this is to safeguard children and adults while training as well as teaching stranger danger and the importance of no one touching anywhere a swimsuit goes on a child etc but it also covers dealing with children who you think may be abused or if they confide in you, there's recognised procedures to take.

This is a good site, there's good resources on many issues people may come across. There's Safeguarding in martial arts | CPSU

That's an issue anyone who teaches kids' self-defense needs to consider. The original Stranger Danger program caused a lot of fear of strangers (in the kids), and there have been some repercussions. Kids unwilling to go to cops for help, kids who got hurt or lost and wouldn't ask strangers for help because they'd been told to be afraid of strangers. There are some things worth working with kids on, but it has to be tempered.

 

[Tez3]

That's an issue anyone who teaches kids' self-defense needs to consider. The original Stranger Danger program caused a lot of fear of strangers (in the kids), and there have been some repercussions. Kids unwilling to go to cops for help, kids who got hurt or lost and wouldn't ask strangers for help because they'd been told to be afraid of strangers. There are some things worth working with kids on, but it has to be tempered.

The general policy taught in the UK is that children should find a police officer, go into a shop, go to a person with children or others they think are safe after a discussion on who is 'safe' to go to and who is not. Of course the children around our way include soldiers as we have thousands and there's nearly always a few around. Quite handy actually when there's a vehicle collision or someone taken ill, all know first aid and don't panic, perfect neighbours!

They also need to know that the person who may be a danger to them can be a woman and not a 'nasty man'. There's a fine line between teaching children to be aware but confident they can cope and scaring them witless.


This is the swimsuit/underwear rule I mentioned. The Underwear Rule – resources for schools and teachers

 

[JP3]

This is a common and understandable reaction (especially from men) to these sorts of stories. A person (usually but not always a woman) reports being sexually harassed/molested/assaulted/raped by the same person on multiple occasions over a (sometimes long) period of time. Sometimes the victim may have had continued business or social dealings with the perpetrator during the time in question. The temptation is to think "How could this happen? Why wouldn't the victim report the first incident?* Why would they continue to associate with their attacker? Why would they be alone with him after the first time?"

What the person asking these questions is missing is the pervasive effects of what is sometimes called "rape culture." Complaints are often ignored or dismissed and negative consequences may be brought to bear on those who speak up. Perpetrators are often in positions of power within a given industry or social group. Avoiding them completely may mean that the victim has to give up on professional or social opportunities which may be important to her. Even if she does decide to make that sacrifice, there is no guarantee that there won't be another predator waiting for her in whatever company/school/team/industry/social group/whatever that she moves into. For this reason, some women may come to see dealing with sexual predators as being part of the "cost of business" in whatever field they are in. They may try to avoid being alone with certain people, but that may not always be possible.

*(In this case, apparently the alleged victim did report the first incident, but her claims were dismissed. This is common and that is part of why most sexual assaults are not reported.)

As my sig says, I'm open to learnin' when education drops on me.

I have to be objective with other's problems at work, so here we go with trying to be objective about my own reaction. I've got a feeling that my perspective is more than a bit shaped by being 6'3", 230 lbs and the MA background I've got behind me, aches, pains and scars as proof. I just don't think that I am personally capable of empathy with the situation Tony is describing in general fashion above. Sympathy, absolutely! The being-preyed apon is the literal reason for getting in to MA more than four decades ago now. So, I can sympathsize... but as I have never been an adult, fully-grown sexual entity who is preyed upon by others, either figuratively or literally, as in the case of all these situations where these predator guys are abusing their power, position, authority whatever... it's just hard to wrap mine head about this issue.

Question for WaterGal... good point about the stories sort of going away.... do you think that is the media's fault, sliding from "this" issue to "that" issue witht he changes int he wind, to just keep things fresh? It's like, as a society, we have all developed a serious case of Television-fed A.D.D. We can't keep our collective mind on a problem for more than 5 minutes, and then we're on to the next thing.

Oh, and I went back and both read and listened to the original story again. Mandy apparently complained back in 1997 while on a trip to China..... and it was only investigated in 2006-2008..... WTF?

 

[oftheherd1]

Tez, relax. I did no such thing. My question was in what the reporter "reported." It seems as if the reporter is saying that the exact same girl complained of one event in 2006, which was investigated in 2008... then the same girl complained against the same guy in 2015? Does that make any sense to you?

Look at it from both ways.

"Mandy" is assaulted by the guy in 2006, she complains about it officially. It is investigated. I am assuming that she was, in fact, assaulted. Then, if the story is right, this same Mandy managed to get back in a situation where her attacker had access to her like that? Maybe it was a different Mandy? This is why I was asking if I had understood that correctly.

Then, let's look at it the other way, since you seem to think I was victim-blaming. Which I'm not. But, if she made the whole thing up in 2006, and it wwas officially investigated in 2008.... That would mean that the Lopez family continued to associate in some close way with an accuser like that. That doesn't make sense either. I'd expect distance, either way, would you not?

Which is why I asked if I had understood the story right.

Sorry, actually you did:

Did I hear that reporter right... said that the Mandy Malone girl accused the one Lopez brother of raping her in Both 2006 and in 2015?

So.... is that right? She put herself in the position two times? I can't have heard that right.

"the Mandy Malone girl" tends towards putting her down. "She put herself in the position two times?" is definitely a subtle way of blaming her; how can any of us be sure she put herself in that position with an expectation of having forcible sex either time? Especially the first time. And if not then, why the second?

I do give you credit for following up for us and finding other reports of allegations of forcible and/or at least inappropriate sex by teachers or officials. I think that shows character on your part. And welcome to the world of cover up. It happens.

What many people don't understand is rape, and inappropriate actions/touchings, which are often grooming situations and testing the waters, are more common than most people realize. Being a victim of a sexual assault, despite increased sexual freedom for all, still carries a strong stigma. Male dominance (although females can also seek dominance) often takes a from of sexual predation. The desire is to forcibly dominate, the weapon is sex. Even so, somehow, the victim is tainted, now non-worthy. That is one of the primary reasons so many rapes go unreported. "She should have known better than to wear those clothes and expose so much of herself, or she just showed that she wanted it." Good defenses for all men as a way to defend all men. Nonsense! A woman may indeed make bad choices but it doesn't mean she intended the result. Why don't we dismiss robbery victims who make bad choices and get robbed?

Along with the dominance is that some males will attempt to put themselves in dominant positions, or when they realize they are in one, will attempt to act out an inappropriate desire to dominate, using sex. That is why you hear more allegations of supervisors or teachers attempting sex with subordinates or students. And it is not new, just due to changes in attitude, it is getting reported more. Given that fact, martial arts instructors can also feel that is a good way to act. Before anyone again might want to say children, especially girls (but boys too), sometimes come on to adults, I agree that is possible. Especially as they enter puberty. But adults are supposed to above that.

In this case, as has been said, there are too many things we don't know. But when two brothers seem to continually be accused, if I were the IOC, I would seriously consider getting other people, at least until the allegations could be proven wrong. And I would not even appear to condone such conduct by not vigorously pursuing the allegations.

Granted, nobody wants to see anyone wrongly accused of any crime. But what if the allegations are true? How will people involved in decision making feel, and more importantly, how many dazzling athletes will with their parent's agreement, decide Olympic sports are not worthy?

Sorry for the long post, but any of us can jump to snap decisions due to cultural bias we may have. We should not.

EDIT: JP3, I don't mean to come down too hard on you only, as all we males tend to be taught that as we grow up. We may say things, framed in a way that implies something we really didn't mean. You subsequent posts show you in fact do have an open mind. Good on you!

 

[Tez3]

This is from 17 years ago but remains as true today. Many parents collude with the abusers, whether knowing or not. Ambitious parents can be willing to overlook any 'abuse' ( whether sexual, physical or mental) if 'that' coach can get the results the parents want... their child at the top of the pile in whatever sport. Many parents also refuse to believe that the often famous coach could possibly abuse their child ( as the authorities would have not have let them carry on surely? sadly though the authorities are good at ignoring abuse too), huge amounts of money are spent grooming the child for success ( at the same time the coach is grooming the child for abuse). The reason abusers can often rape or abuse their victims is because of that grooming. this from the NSPCC "Once they have established trust, groomers will exploit the relationship by isolating the child from friends or family and making the child feel dependent on them. They will use any means of power or control to make a child believe they have no choice but to do what they want." This is especially true of sports coaches, who often travel with their charges to competitions quite often around the country but also abroad where language barriers etc make things difficult. any strange behaviour on the child's part can be explained to parents as the child being tired/disappointed at completion/focussed etc etc. The child doesn't want disappoint parents who are paying out so much money and have such huge expectations, so puts up with what is happening, they may even feel that it's a normal thing to happen. This state of mind can carry on for years well beyond teenage years. So far from them putting themselves in the position to be abused it may be 'normal' for them to be, it may not until they see non abused athletes/competitors or change coaches for example that they realise what has happened to them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As my sig says, I'm open to learnin' when education drops on me.

I have to be objective with other's problems at work, so here we go with trying to be objective about my own reaction. I've got a feeling that my perspective is more than a bit shaped by being 6'3", 230 lbs and the MA background I've got behind me, aches, pains and scars as proof. I just don't think that I am personally capable of empathy with the situation Tony is describing in general fashion above. Sympathy, absolutely! The being-preyed apon is the literal reason for getting in to MA more than four decades ago now. So, I can sympathsize... but as I have never been an adult, fully-grown sexual entity who is preyed upon by others, either figuratively or literally, as in the case of all these situations where these predator guys are abusing their power, position, authority whatever... it's just hard to wrap mine head about this issue.

Question for WaterGal... good point about the stories sort of going away.... do you think that is the media's fault, sliding from "this" issue to "that" issue witht he changes int he wind, to just keep things fresh? It's like, as a society, we have all developed a serious case of Television-fed A.D.D. We can't keep our collective mind on a problem for more than 5 minutes, and then we're on to the next thing.

Oh, and I went back and both read and listened to the original story again. Mandy apparently complained back in 1997 while on a trip to China..... and it was only investigated in 2006-2008..... WTF?

Kudos for keeping an open mind and being willing to learn. Like you, this sort of event is outside of my daily experience. 6'4" adult male martial artists are typically not the target for these kinds of predators. It's taken years of reading and listening to the experiences of others to get a grasp on the situation.

There's been a lot written over the years about the prevalence of these kinds of abuses and the culture which leads to them. Unfortunately there has been significant pushback every step of the way. Even today I encounter people who honestly believe that the whole thing is rubbish made up by extremist man-hating "feminazis" and that women routinely make up false rape allegations against guys they had consensual sex with, either to cover up decisions they regret or based on a malicious grudge.

In addition to the problems caused by the sexism embedded into the culture, there's also the problem of the free pass given to the popular and powerful. If the perpetrator is well-liked and influential in a given social circle, they will have defenders who will deny or excuse or cover up their crimes while attacking their accusers. Jerry Sandusky, Roman Polanski, Jimmy Savile, and Bill Cosby are some of the high-profile cases which come immediately to mind, but there are plenty of instances where the rapists are just local celebrities, as in the Stuebenville High School rape case.

A related phenomenon can occur when the abuser is a representative of an institution which holds power, as in the long history of the Catholic church covering up abuses by priests.

It's tempting to think of the problem being just being the province of a relatively small group of bad people who can be identified and locked up, but it's really a systemic issue. Unless we can change the culture and the general societal outlook, rape and other kinds of sexual abuse will continue to be way more prevalent than it would be if it were limited to the actions of individual monsters.

 

[Tez3]

Jerry Sandusky, Roman Polanski, Jimmy Savile, and Bill Cosby are some of the high-profile cases which come

Jimmy Saville also abused boys.
Here we have a huge investigation going on ( again!) that involves boys not girls.
United Kingdom football sexual abuse scandal - Wikipedia


“One day, travelling in the car, he started to touch me,” Stewart said. “It frightened me to death, did not know what to do, I tried to tell my parents not to let him in but I was only 11. From then, it progressed to sexually abusing me, he said he would kill my mother, my father, my two brothers if I breathed a word about it. And at 11 years old, you believe that.”


England footballer reveals he was abused by coach for four years

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Jimmy Saville also abused boys.
Here we have a huge investigation going on ( again!) that involves boys not girls.
United Kingdom football sexual abuse scandal - Wikipedia


“One day, travelling in the car, he started to touch me,” Stewart said. “It frightened me to death, did not know what to do, I tried to tell my parents not to let him in but I was only 11. From then, it progressed to sexually abusing me, he said he would kill my mother, my father, my two brothers if I breathed a word about it. And at 11 years old, you believe that.”


England footballer reveals he was abused by coach for four years

Yeah, that's why I listed the "give popular and powerful people a pass" factor separately from the sexism factor. Either or both factors can come into play.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, that's why I listed the "give popular and powerful people a pass" factor separately from the sexism factor. Either or both factors can come into play.

Actually there were few that Saville didn't abuse, mentally handicapped, people in hospitals, children's homes and young offenders places, backstage at his television shows, people in comas and even dead people.
Jimmy Savile latest: 'macabre reports' of interfering with dead bodies