Self Training...

[Charles Mahan]

Not too long ago someone collected a list of sword training accidents. It surfaced on E-budo. So here's the link for anyone who's interested.

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/darwin.html

 

[shesulsa]

I think everyone who attends a training center that has weaponry (even if it's decorative only) should read that thread on Don Rice as well as the link you posted, Charles.

It's oh-so-very easy to forget that we are, indeed, training with weapons and that these weapons maim and kill, even today.

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

I have already said that i train with my bokken, not with my sword, why is it so hard for yall to get that? I only oil and cut stuff with my sword, typicaly boxes, mayby pool noodles every now and then. Gees yall sound like a brokken record, quit acting like i am training with my live blade, i'm not. thats the last time i'm saying that.

I do take saftey measurs to the best that i can, tomorrow i will be going to the Library to see if they have any books on iaido. (But i will still be training with my bokken. )
And the "master" in my name indicates master of wolves, not sword master, i already said that also.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

well Mr. Master, i would suggest that you keep the sword in the closet and refrain from cutting anything with it.......every second you have it out is like having a loaded gun pointed at you.
but dont take my word for it........what the hell do we know?

 

[Swordlady]

Wolf, earlier in this thread, your friend Clint said that the two of you are "training buddies". What are you using in your "sparring sessions"? Bokken? Do you know how easy it is to hurt someone with even a wooden sword?

To give you a real life example from the dojo, we were doing partnered exercises with bokken on the floor one day. Not sparring, just going back and forth, alternating strikes with the bokken. One would be the "attacker", pressing the other backwards towards the wall. He would end with a shot to the head, which isn't supposed to connect. The final blow was to be just short of its intended target. Well...one of the students miscalculated, and his bokken connected with his partner's head. It wasn't a full-force strike, mind you. But it was enough to split the skin on his partner's skull, causing him to bleed profusely on the mat. His wife had to come to the dojo and take him to the hospital, where he received stitches. He was lucky that he only needed stitches. It doesn't take much to crack a skull with a well-placed blow by a wooden sword.

Please think about this carefully, before you decide to play "backyard samurai" with your buddy.

 

[arnisador]

We're now against wooden swords? Sheesh! Will people advise him to cut his steak with a cardboard knife so he doesn't lose a finger?

Obviously, people shouldn't practice with live blades if they aren't well-trained and well-supervised. But this is just too much. If I had been prohibited from picking up a broomstick and swinging it like a staff, I might never have followed up by wanting to learn martial arts.

Has no one ever seen kids playing cops and rubbers with toy guns? A bokken is a training weapon. Yes, you can hurt someone with it...though it doesn't take much to get a lot of bleeding out of a cut to the scalp. But if they're swinging bokken-shaped sticks at one another then they're doing what kids across the country do with sticks, baseball bats, etc. They play around.

I'm not in favor of discouraging people from playing with training weapons. You could hurt yourself with just about anything. If these two are swinging them at each other like baseball bats, that's bad. But the average teenager with average sense is not going to do that.

People seem very willing to shake their fingers at these would-be martial artists but less willing to be constructive. Are there books/videos/seminars one might suggest? Can anyone suggest simple drills that would get them started until better training comes along? Why not point them to the chanbara-style play weapons or some similar padded weapon, if safety is an issue?

Who would be receptive to all this negativity and the derisive comments about 15 year olds? Bear in mind that this advice comes, for the most part, from anonymous Internet posters who think everyone should recognize their knowledge. The links to accident results are helpful warnings. Now, is there anything else someone can do that is constructive?!?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i got some unsigned negative rep for post #235, calling me a bouncer, asking me to be the adult,and thinking people should not be allowed to decide who stays and who goes on this forum.
so in reply to my unnamed detractor........if you look at the posts subsequent to Mr. Master's, i think everyone tried to give him some good advice and he has continuously given reasons why he cant take such good advice.
so, if he wants to "swing" his sword around dangerously slicing up cardboard boxes and pool noodles, let him.
its a dangerous game with no winners......if he does not want to heed the advice, the adult thing now is to say bye bye.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

We're now against wooden swords? Sheesh! Will people advise him to cut his steak with a cardboard knife so he doesn't lose a finger?

Obviously, people shouldn't practice with live blades if they aren't well-trained and well-supervised. But this is just too much. If I had been prohibited from picking up a broomstick and swinging it like a staff, I might never have followed up by wanting to learn martial arts.

Has no one ever seen kids playing cops and rubbers with toy guns? A bokken is a training weapon. Yes, you can hurt someone with it...though it doesn't take much to get a lot of bleeding out of a cut to the scalp. But if they're swinging bokken-shaped sticks at one another then they're doing what kids across the country do with sticks, baseball bats, etc. They play around.

I'm not in favor of discouraging people from playing with training weapons. You could hurt yourself with just about anything. If these two are swinging them at each other like baseball bats, that's bad. But the average teenager with average sense is not going to do that.

People seem very willing to shake their fingers at these would-be martial artists but less willing to be constructive. Are there books/videos/seminars one might suggest? Can anyone suggest simple drills that would get them started until better training comes along? Why not point them to the chanbara-style play weapons or some similar padded weapon, if safety is an issue?

Who would be receptive to all this negativity and the derisive comments about 15 year olds? Bear in mind that this advice comes, for the most part, from anonymous Internet posters who think everyone should recognize their knowledge. The links to accident results are helpful warnings. Now, is there anything else someone can do that is constructive?!?

if he wants to play samurai with a plastic sword.....thats great.
kids do not play cops and robbers with loaded guns and charged tazers.
would you want your kid to learn swordplay from a video or book?
my answer to that would be, Hell No.
i wouldnt want my kid to learn how to shoot a gun or learn gun safety from a book either.
if i was his parent, i would lock that sword up, buy him a few books and a video......find him REAL instruction, and then when he is ready, let him have it.

this isnt a jack knife, or a BB gun.

 

[Swordlady]

The reason why I posted that bit about bokken is because early on in this thread, Clint said that he and Wolf were "training buddies". Now...it doesn't take much to put two-and-two together, since Wolf said that he has been training with bokken. Two 14-year-olds swinging wooden swords at each other is NOT a safe practice. Using padded swords - like this - would be a LOT safer; it would cut down the chances of breaking bones or cracking a skull.

Now...if Wolf wants to use his bokken for solo practice, hey, go for it. My concern is solely for the whole "sparring with bokken" issue. We don't even spar with bokken in the dojo, because of the injury risk (we did a few times, but the senior students soon put a stop to it).

 

[BlackCatBonz]

The reason why I posted that bit about bokken is because early on in this thread, Clint said that he and Wolf were "training buddies". Now...it doesn't take much to put two-and-two together, since Wolf said that he has been training with bokken. Two 14-year-olds swinging wooden swords at each other is NOT a safe practice. Using padded swords - like this - would be a LOT safer; it would cut down the chances of breaking bones or cracking a skull.

Now...if Wolf wants to use his bokken for solo practice, hey, go for it. My concern is solely for the whole "sparring with bokken" issue. We don't even spar with bokken in the dojo, because of the injury risk (we did a few times, but the senior students soon put a stop to it).

i completely agree.......you need a controlled arena for practicing with bokken.
it takes a fair amount of practice to develop good control, even with a bokken.
working with the bokken was pretty much a part of every class i went to for my first 3 years of training........and even when you start to develop a bit of skill, you still end up getting cracked on the head, arm, or fingers; even with a modicum of control, you can slow things down to avoid really serious injury.........but that takes instruction.

 

[shesulsa]

I have already said that i train with my bokken, not with my sword, why is it so hard for yall to get that? I only oil and cut stuff with my sword, typicaly boxes, mayby pool noodles every now and then. Gees yall sound like a brokken record, quit acting like i am training with my live blade, i'm not. thats the last time i'm saying that.

I do take saftey measurs to the best that i can, tomorrow i will be going to the Library to see if they have any books on iaido. (But i will still be training with my bokken. )
And the "master" in my name indicates master of wolves, not sword master, i already said that also.

Oh goodness. I quite honestly felt the thread had moved far beyond you, per se, and more towards the incredibly bad idea of self-"teaching" as a whole.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I've got 8 books on sword arts on my book shelf. Good books, like "Flashing Steel: Mastering Eishin-Ryu Swordsmanship" by Masayuki Shimabukuro, Leonard J. Pellman and "Iai: The Art of Drawing the Sword" by Darrell Craig. I also have something in the area of 100+ clips, videos and tutorials on vhs/dvd/mpg covering sword arts. Most, require some prior understanding of things, and a few are well "advanced" in nature. Regardless, outside of being a nice reference, all of these are poor substitutes for a quality instructor.

As to bokken for sparring, not good. The ones I've used have a reputation for shattering when you least expect it. Are you wearing eye protection? How about padded gloves? Padded body armour? A cup? Mouth guards?

Safest way to spar is to use a padded stick, actionflex or SmakStiks both make excellent products for that, and they are affordable. I've also done the PVC pipe, pipe insulation and duct tape route. Hurts more, but, tends to be safer than wood, and definately safer than steel, live or not.

I train with my wooden bokken solo. I train partner drills with SmakStiks and ActionFlex. My $300 Practical Plus is currently been sitting in it's protective cover since I got it, though I have looked at it a few times. Not ready to wage war against the evil cardboard empire yet. (I will however, admit to doing sinawallis with a spatha...it was wild). I also wear eye, hand, forearm and head protection. Just saying "We'll pull our shots" isn't enough. Accidents happen. Thats why they call them accidents.

 

[arnisador]

my unnamed detractor

I ran out of room to sign it. It was in response to this less-than-helpful comment:

i really dont think a 15 year old kid with the word "master" in his name, espousing self training for a serious study deserves a place in this forum.

I agree that learning any sort of martial arts from a book is usually not very effective. On the other hand, a chanbara sword and a DVD could keep him safe and motivated until a better option comes around. That seems like better advice than citing his age and telling him he doesn't 'deserve' a place here. It would certainly be more helpful...if one is honestly concerned for his safety. Being here and interacting with those more knowledgeable would surely provide the best result as compared to being sent away for being youthful and enthusiastic.

 

[shesulsa]

Even monkeys fall from trees.

 

[arnisador]

Safest way to spar is to use a padded stick, actionflex or SmakStiks both make excellent products for that, and they are affordable. I've also done the PVC pipe, pipe insulation and duct tape route. Hurts more, but, tends to be safer than wood, and definately safer than steel, live or not.

This is some useful advice. Padded sticks are better now than they used to be; you can get ones that have sufficient stiffness for the techniques you want to do but that still are unlikely to cause injury. (Eye goggles are always a good idea.) This allows experimentation, safely.

Training with wooden weapons is fine--as an arnisador, I do it constantly--but there's a difference betwen my light rattan sticks or even my (regular wood) daggers and a heavy, long, and unevenly weighted weapon like a bokken. A shinai is a better bet for that kind of sparring. The point about a bokken possibly shattering is an underappreciated point.

It might be helpful to provide some links for some of these products? I'm suggesting a video like this one (there are others there) and a corresponding weapon (though that one may be too short). It won't turn anyone into a master swordsman, but for teenagers playing with swords while they wait for the mobility and financial resources to pursue better training I think it's a step forward. They can go as hard as they like and will be able to learn what doesn't work. (Learning what does work is often the harder part.) I don't endorse learning-by-video for self-defense, but this is a different situation.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I ran out of room to sign it. It was in response to this less-than-helpful comment:



I agree that learning any sort of martial arts from a book is usually not very effective. On the other hand, a chanbara sword and a DVD could keep him safe and motivated until a better option comes around. That seems like better advice than citing his age and telling him he doesn't 'deserve' a place here. It would certainly be more helpful...if one is honestly concerned for his safety. Being here and interacting with those more knowledgeable would surely provide the best result as compared to being sent away for being youthful and enthusiastic.

i am concerned with his safety.......i am more concerned that he is getting an audience from "trained experts" that are still arguing with him.
id like to contact his parents and ask them what the hell they think they are doing giving a kid a surgical sharp sword in the first place.
i dont want to motivate him to self learn.....want to self learn? try tai chi,calculus or algebra.......not kenjutsu.

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

i am concerned with his safety.

you have a bad way of showing it.

id like to contact his parents and ask them what the hell they think they are doing giving a kid a surgical sharp sword in the first place.

Because they know me and trust me, and who the hell are you to say that thats wrong? (No disrespect meant, just using what he is saying.)

Thanks for the links, yes we do train with the bokkens against each other, but when we hit each other we stop the bokken so its not a full contact hit, just a light hit, enough to know you were hit, and the head is off limits. I have a Guijo bokken from http://whiteheronblades.com/bokken.html
Never heard of them shattering. I will be going to the library tomorrow to see about some sword books, hopefully some iaijutsu books. (and some alchemy books.) When i get some more $$ i will see about getting some shinai, but for now i have to use the bokken.


Ronin Wolf-master

 

[Bob Hubbard]

when we hit each other we stop the bokken so its not a full contact hit, just a light hit, enough to know you were hit, and the head is off limits.

When we do stick drills with rattan, then head is also off limits. So are the hands. I've lost track of the number of hand shots I've taken, and ended up with a mild concussion once from a full force head shot that would have crushed my left eye socket if I hadn't been wearing safety glasses. These were suffered while training with experienced players (though the concussion was self inflicted due to a ricochet). I've also had the pleasure of listening to some morons (ok, dumbasses) explain that they don't need face masks playing paintball since they won't "aim at the face". Those "smarties" tend to suffer a lot of eye injuries for some reason. As SL indicated above, even when going light, people do get hurt.

My point is, even when practicing under controled circumstances, with experienced people, you can get hurt. Wood splinters, and a splinter in the eye can **** you up for life. Busted fingers will end a career fast, and make later years quite uncomfortable, painful even. If you insist on playing on your own, do yourself a favor and wear properly rated eye protection, and get some padding. Hockey gloves at least will save your fingers some major problems. Remember, a busted hand means, you won't be able to hold that sword down the road.

Safe training, is smart training.

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

yeah that is the only problem that ever happens is getting hit in the knucke, man it hurts. :tantrum: (lol) i will try to get some gloves, but i dont really thing i would need the glasess, cuase we dont even aim for the head, but its not a bad idea. ( I know what you mean about those morons that play paintball, then they wonder why they are blind... :whip: )
But i will have to wait till my Birthday before i can get any of this, cause i only have $10.00, wich will probly go for either more sword oil, or maybe some Yu-Gi-Oh! cards, i have not bought any in decades. (months)
but i will definatly see what i can do about the gloves, i did wear some gloves one time, it still hurt but not as bad, would probly help if my bokken had a plastick tsuba.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If you have one near you, try a used sports gear shop, goodwill, amvets, etc. Good for banging, even when it aint pretty.