Self Defense in a McDonald's in Arkansas

[drop bear]

Obviously you just piss yourself to show solidarity and walk out friends.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If that was me, I won't walked into that restaurant. To me, to avoid problem is always better than to let the problem to happen and then try to fix it afterward.

IMO, it's always better to test MA skill in tournament than to test in the street.

But if I can sense danger and if I have to enter that restaurant, I want to make sure that I have armed myself to the teeth.

But you did not answer the question. Assuming you had entered, what would have done?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Shots are fired, obviously. It's pretty simple math, Bill.
Even for a jarhead.

So my statement about the potential for bloodshed going up the moment a weapon is introduced would be correct.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So my statement about the potential for bloodshed going up the moment a weapon is introduced would be correct.

Well duh. The chance of gunshots without a gun is roughly zero percent.
What is incorrect is the statement that 'there's no going back' and the implication that drawing a weapon automatically means firing it. That's nonsense.

 

[JR 137]

Actually, this is completely untrue. In 75% of cases in which a gun is drawn in self defense, no shots are fired. The presence of the gun is enough to end the event without shots being fired.

While the 75% chance seems good on paper and is worth laying down your money on things like sports and horse racing, the 75% odds that it’ll end well here aren’t exactly the same thing, are they? 25% chance of losing some money is good odds. 25% chance of having to pull the trigger and/or answer why you pulled the gun in the first place and deal with the aftermath with any scenario isn’t very good odds at all.

There’s a time to draw a weapon and a time to keep it holstered. Don’t draw it unless you’re 100% sure you need to is the moral of my story. 75% chance it’ll end well sounds fine and good on paper. 25% chance of someone getting killed doesn’t.

 

[JR 137]

And the whole “don’t go in” thinking is BS. He was hungry and stopped to eat. Simple as that. Drive thru? He could’ve been carjacked.

Just saying.

 

[Dirty Dog]

While the 75% chance seems good on paper and is worth laying down your money on things like sports and horse racing, the 75% odds that it’ll end well here aren’t exactly the same thing, are they? 25% chance of losing some money is good odds. 25% chance of having to pull the trigger and/or answer why you pulled the gun in the first place and deal with the aftermath with any scenario isn’t very good odds at all.

There’s a time to draw a weapon and a time to keep it holstered. Don’t draw it unless you’re 100% sure you need to is the moral of my story. 75% chance it’ll end well sounds fine and good on paper. 25% chance of someone getting killed doesn’t.

When did I say you should draw it without damned good reasons?
What I said was that the claim that drawing a weapon means it will be used is nonsense. Because it is.
If I draw my gun, there is a 75% chance I won't have to fire it. That's pretty damn good odds. There's also a 25% chance that I'll have to fire it. Those are pretty good odds. There's also a 100% chance that I'll have damn good reasons for drawing it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But you did not answer the question. Assuming you had entered, what would have done?

I won't do anything different. But you are American and I'm Chinese. Sometime that can make a big difference in US especially I have an American wife. I'm very alert around my environment.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And the whole “don’t go in” thinking is BS. He was hungry and stopped to eat. Simple as that. Drive thru? He could’ve been carjacked.

Just saying.

The risk that you may have to take and the reward that you will get just don't match.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well duh. The chance of gunshots without a gun is roughly zero percent.
What is incorrect is the statement that 'there's no going back' and the implication that drawing a weapon automatically means firing it. That's nonsense.

It is wise to presume a worst case scenario, at least it is for me. There is no going back in the sense of the dynamic. That particular genii isn't going back in the bottle.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I won't do anything different. But you are American and I'm Chinese. Sometime that can make a big difference in US especially I have an American wife. I'm very alert around my environment.

So you are critical of my response but would have responded the same way. Interesting.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And the whole “don’t go in” thinking is BS. He was hungry and stopped to eat. Simple as that. Drive thru? He could’ve been carjacked.

Just saying.

I originally did not intend to eat in my car, therefore I did not go through the drive thru. When I recognized the issue, I was out of my car and at the door. It would have been wiser for me to have gotten back in my car and driven away. That was an error on my part.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So you are critical of my response but would have responded the same way. Interesting.

As I have said, if I walked into that restaurant door, my weapon will be in my pocket. I may take 2 extreme cases:

- Don't go through that door.
- Well armed when I walk through that door.

I won't take the option of walk through that door unarmed.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As I have said, if I walked into that restaurant door, my weapon will be in my pocket.

And? Let's pretend I was similarly heeled. Other than being strapped, what should my response have been? I'm still unclear on how having a weapon on me would have changed my calculus.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And? Let's pretend I was similarly heeled. Other than being strapped, what should my response have been? I'm still unclear on how having a weapon on me would have changed my calculus.

To have a weapon in your pocket may not change anything. But it will give you the last protection that you may need in the worse case.

When a knife is stabbed into my heart, at that particular moment I don't want to feel regret just because I worry about the legal issue.

IMO, the legal issue is not as bad as the death issue.

Everytime when I watch movie such as Texas Chain Saw Massacre, I always wonder if a handgun is available, the story will end differently.

 

[Martial D]

I just got back from my daughter's wedding in Texas. Drove down from the Detroit area. It was a 2 day trip each way. Had a great time.

On the way back, I stopped into a McDonald's in a small town in Arkansas. It was maybe 9 PM local time.

I noticed a tall muscular kid standing at the door looking out into the parking lot when I got out of my vehicle. My little internal voice registered him as trouble right away. However, I was hungry and I don't always just drive away at the first sign of trouble. Turned out to be foolish. Should have listened. I usually do. Not this time. You know that voice. I'm sure you hear it too. Situational awareness. Should have listened to it. My fault.

So I opened the door and walked in. Tall muscular dude gives way and I walk past him. The restaurant is nearly empty, but there are about 6 what I would judge to be teenagers in there, hanging out near the drink dispensers, laughing and joking around. Loud. Too loud. I'm keeping them in my peripheral vision. Now I'm thinking I made a mistake, but the damage is done, I'm in the lobby in front of the counter. There are no other customers in the place. I get it - the local toughs have made this an unhappy place to hang out.

I go ahead and make my order. Listening to my inner voice for the first time, I ask for it to go instead of to eat in the restaurant. I'm not going to try to brazen it out, I'm looking for an exit.

About that time, I start hearing huge hooting laughter. Like way loud. I look.

The biggest guy there, maybe 6' 5" or so and very muscular, has managed to get chocolate shake on the seat of his track suit (yes, track suit), like the old Nike things. Guess they're back in style now. It makes it look like he has soiled himself. Everyone is laughing at him. One guy is really laughing hard but he's watching me. He sees me look. He points at me and starts to hoot. "LOOK, EVEN THIS OLD DUDE IS LAUGHING AT YOU!"

Oh. Not good.

Mister Poopy Pants looks up from wiping the back of his track suit and says "I'm fixing to f*#@ you up." His hands make fists. No real heat in his voice, not yet. That's good. He makes eye contact with me. He's looking for something. I know what he's looking for in my face. You do too. You've been there. We all have.

I've got a bag of food, and an empty drink cup. He's standing in front of the drink dispenser. His boys are on all sides and they start to move in towards me. I look over at the restaurant employees - they are suddenly very busy with something else and won't make eye contact. I know where this is going.

...

I put a smile on my face, look Poopy Pants in the eye. "Happens to all of us at one time or another," I say. "No need to get upset, it's all good." I am being 'not a threat' and 'not aggressive' and 'not worth the bother'. That's what I'm doing.

I walk past Poopy Pants and fill my beverage with Diet Coke and ice. I'm now standing behind him, he didn't turn as I went past. I don't think he wants to be a bad guy. He's just big and angry and humiliated and his boys are laughing at him. All I have to do is not be an irritant or a threat or an excuse.

His boys are still hooting, really loud. The guy who tried to point Poopy Pants at me is still making eye contact with me. He wants me to get my butt kicked, he's the instigator. If I have to fight, I know who's getting it first, this guy. He's also the smaller one in the group. He's trying to fit in. He's not quite, so he's trying harder than he should. You know this guy. He's not a jock, but he hangs with jocks and hopes they will accept him. That kind of guy.

My cup is filled, the lid is on, I'm ready to go. Gotta walk past these guys. Nothing for it.

I keep my head up, smile on my face, non-threatening. I make eye contact with Mister Instigator, he with me. I'm telling him as well as I can through my eyes that if the caca hits the fan, he dies. I will go down, but he dies, first and with a quickness. No question that's going to happen. I'm not going after the biggest guy, Mister Poopy Pants, he's acting out because he's humiliated. I'm going after the little guy, the big mouth, the one who started this with me. I want his friends to see me kill him. My car key goes into his eyeball, then I drop the food and the key and grab the chair next to him. That goes into his brain housing group, as hard as I can swing it. And those McDonald's chairs are heavy. I'll hit him as many times as I can.

I'm checking out the chairs as I go. Can be used for weapons? Yep. Floor? Wet-ish tile. Slippery but my footing seems OK. They're all wearing these slick nylon style hoodies. Those get pulled over the top hockey fight style if I can manage it. Might get one or two that way, give me a second of confusion to run. I might go for the door, or I might vault the front counter and look for something dangerous to use as a weapon back there. Dunno. Are these guys armed? I can't tell, but they don't favor any side or have hands covering anything they might be wanting to protect. I'm thinking if they have any weapons, they're in their cars. Like me.

I've got my drink and bag of food in my left hand, I'm a rightie. Got my car key in my right. It's just the new-fangled style of one key with a fob that works like a switchblade kind of thing. I will sink it in a neck or eyeball if I can.

I press the button on the key fob for the car horn. It starts going off. Their heads whip around into the parking lot. My car is faced towards the door, the headlights are blinking. I walk past the group and out the door. I'm looking at my key fob like I'm just a doddering old man, made a mistake, hit the wrong button is all. Nothing to see here. Keep moving. I'm out the door.

I walk towards my car, hit the button again and the engine starts, lights and horn stop. I am listening as I walk. Not going to turn around. Just listening as I walk. Can't hear a thing. Severe pucker factor, but I think I'm good. There's no bravado, no rush, in going out into the parking lot after an old man who didn't threaten them in any way. They missed their shot to encircle me, push up their courage, and eventually take a poke at me in the restaurant for some imagined slight.

I get in the car. Seat belt on. Food down. Put car in gear.

I leave quietly, slowly, normally.

I pulled over at the next exit, which happened to be the state welcome center rest stop. I ate in the cab of my car.

Self defense? Yep. Exciting? Nope. But there it is.
...

Well handled. Good situational awareness.
With that said, you've kind of highlighted the problem with 'self defense'. Would anything have changed had you thought nothing of it, and just got your food and left? Maybe maybe not. Nothing happened either way.

 

[Gweilo]

Perfect example of situational awareness, control and avoidance, I don't see how there was a better way to have dealt with the situation, top job Mr Mattocks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It would have been wiser for me to have gotten back in my car and driven away. That was an error on my part.

Agree with you there.

- Many years ago I drove in a dark street in Kansas city. From a distance, I could see some guys walked toward my car. I used the reverse to back up my car until I could turn into another street.
- One day my wife and I were training MA in a park. A group of bikers arrived. We drove our car away within 30 seconds.
- I don't go to bar at all.

To avoid a problem is easier than to let a problem to happen and then try to fix it afterward. Most of the time, I have no interest to hang around, wait and see what may happen.

 

[seasoned]

Good judgement on your part, Bill. The part about the weapons was addressed and handled very well, {keys, chair and what ever restaurant objects available). When the call goes into 911 and it will by employees, it is much better within these circumstances that a concealed weapons not be displayed.

 

[skribs]

"Self defense at McDonalds"
"Just got back from my daughter's wedding"

At first I thought the wedding was at McDonald's.