Self-Defense Against a Melee

[Tez3]

Pretty cool you live so close to Old Trafford. I'm kind of jealous. However I don't know much of a problem military personnel played into football violence. Sure there are those rotten apples but by and large I don't think it military. This is not discount what you witness, but I would think this the exception and not the rule.

In the seventies and eighties the army was at it's lowest figures since before the Second World War, it was severely stretched and had only half the numbers it needed in BAOR so the idea that thousands of soldiers were released on leave to go to a football match is ridiculous in the extreme. The only violence recorded in Amsterdam was in the UEFA cup final in 1974, when Spurs fans destroyed part of Feynoord's stadium, they didn't destroy Amsterdam. the police violence that day was also supposed to be pretty shocking because it was the first time Dutch police had faced this and they reacted strongly.

This is a good article which explains much about the football firms, how you form a defence against this I don't know, other than not to be in their way perhaps or not in a rival firm.
The hooligan problem and football violence that just won't go away | Jamie Jackson

 

[CB Jones]

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

 

[The Great Gigsy]

In the seventies and eighties the army was at it's lowest figures since before the Second World War, it was severely stretched and had only half the numbers it needed in BAOR so the idea that thousands of soldiers were released on leave to go to a football match is ridiculous in the extreme. The only violence recorded in Amsterdam was in the UEFA cup final in 1974, when Spurs fans destroyed part of Feynoord's stadium, they didn't destroy Amsterdam. the police violence that day was also supposed to be pretty shocking because it was the first time Dutch police had faced this and they reacted strongly.

This is a good article which explains much about the football firms, how you form a defence against this I don't know, other than not to be in their way perhaps or not in a rival firm.
The hooligan problem and football violence that just won't go away | Jamie Jackson

I think you misunderstood what I said. I was only commenting that a very small portion of hooligans had a possibility of being involved hooliganism.

 

[jobo]

In the seventies and eighties the army was at it's lowest figures since before the Second World War, it was severely stretched and had only half the numbers it needed in BAOR so the idea that thousands of soldiers were released on leave to go to a football match is ridiculous in the extreme. The only violence recorded in Amsterdam was in the UEFA cup final in 1974, when Spurs fans destroyed part of Feynoord's stadium, they didn't destroy Amsterdam. the police violence that day was also supposed to be pretty shocking because it was the first time Dutch police had faced this and they reacted strongly.

This is a good article which explains much about the football firms, how you form a defence against this I don't know, other than not to be in their way perhaps or not in a rival firm.
The hooligan problem and football violence that just won't go away | Jamie Jackson

how many soldiers did they need on the rhine, they a) had nothing to do unless the Russian invaded and b) were all dead in less than an hour if they did. They could have all gone to the match and it wouldn't have made any difference

 

[drop bear]

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

The best Australia could come up with is.

We will se you in the back of a divy van.

 

[drop bear]

In the seventies and eighties the army was at it's lowest figures since before the Second World War, it was severely stretched and had only half the numbers it needed in BAOR so the idea that thousands of soldiers were released on leave to go to a football match is ridiculous in the extreme. The only violence recorded in Amsterdam was in the UEFA cup final in 1974, when Spurs fans destroyed part of Feynoord's stadium, they didn't destroy Amsterdam. the police violence that day was also supposed to be pretty shocking because it was the first time Dutch police had faced this and they reacted strongly.

This is a good article which explains much about the football firms, how you form a defence against this I don't know, other than not to be in their way perhaps or not in a rival firm.
The hooligan problem and football violence that just won't go away | Jamie Jackson

A market for t shirts with non combatant written on it.

 

[jobo]

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

a bit of Rudyard, that raised the tone a bit

 

[Steve]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I was only commenting that a very small portion of hooligans had a possibility of being involved hooliganism.

He was a sweet and tender hooligan, hooligan,
and he said that he'd never, never do it again,
and of course he won't...
uh, not until the next time.

 

[Tez3]

how many soldiers did they need on the rhine, they a) had nothing to do unless the Russian invaded and b) were all dead in less than an hour if they did. They could have all gone to the match and it wouldn't have made any difference

Really? You want to derail the thread totally especially after I actually told you want they did? It's clear you have no idea, but let's see in 1974 the year of the Amsterdam game you claim the squaddies ram amok in their thousands, there was the invasion of Cyprus, deployments to the conflict in Dhofar, troops in Belize, Brunei, Falkland Islands as well ( there's always been British Military there) the rolling deployments for Op. Banner, there were also random peace keeping duties the UK is pledged to as part of the UN. In 1974 there were 4500 British service personnel in BAOR of who about 3500 were soldiers in Northern Ireland who shared these duties with those in the UK.
1 (BR) Corps consisted of:
1st Division (Verden)
7th Armoured Brigade (Soltau)
11th Infantry Brigade (Minden)
2nd Division (Lübbecke)
4th Guards Infantry Brigade (Münster)
12th Mechanised Brigade (Osnabrück)
4th Division (Herford)
6th Armoured Brigade (Körbecke)
20th Armoured Brigade (Detmold)
1st Artillery Brigade (Hildesheim)
HQ/Signals Battery (Hildesheim)
2 x Heavy Field Artillery Regiments (Hildesheim)
2 x Missile Artillery Regiments (Hildesheim)
7th Air Defence Brigade (Dortmund)
11th Engineer Brigade (Hameln)

I think you are forgetting that the UK was then and still is part of NATO, the 'defence' against the USSR ( not Russia) wasn't theirs alone, there was significant forces from other countries in West Germany at that time. . Now if you want to learn military history I suggest you find a reputable source and stop trying to look clever on here. if you want a political debate then I'm sure someone on here will post up the link so that you no longer derail this thread with your accusations and misinformation.

 

[The Great Gigsy]

@Tez thanks for the article. I found it to be a good read. Funny how the article mentions Russia's hooligan problem and yet they 2018 World Cup hosts.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Tez3]

@Tez thanks for the article. I found it to be a good read. Funny how the article mentions Russia's hooligan problem and yet they 2018 World Cup hosts.

That's going to be the big problem I think, it has the potential to be a bloodbath.

 

[jobo]

Really? You want to derail the thread totally especially after I actually told you want they did? It's clear you have no idea, but let's see in 1974 the year of the Amsterdam game you claim the squaddies ram amok in their thousands, there was the invasion of Cyprus, deployments to the conflict in Dhofar, troops in Belize, Brunei, Falkland Islands as well ( there's always been British Military there) the rolling deployments for Op. Banner, there were also random peace keeping duties the UK is pledged to as part of the UN. In 1974 there were 4500 British service personnel in BAOR of who about 3500 were soldiers in Northern Ireland who shared these duties with those in the UK.
1 (BR) Corps consisted of:
1st Division (Verden)
7th Armoured Brigade (Soltau)
11th Infantry Brigade (Minden)
2nd Division (Lübbecke)
4th Guards Infantry Brigade (Münster)
12th Mechanised Brigade (Osnabrück)
4th Division (Herford)
6th Armoured Brigade (Körbecke)
20th Armoured Brigade (Detmold)
1st Artillery Brigade (Hildesheim)
HQ/Signals Battery (Hildesheim)
2 x Heavy Field Artillery Regiments (Hildesheim)
2 x Missile Artillery Regiments (Hildesheim)
7th Air Defence Brigade (Dortmund)
11th Engineer Brigade (Hameln)

I think you are forgetting that the UK was then and still is part of NATO, the 'defence' against the USSR ( not Russia) wasn't theirs alone, there was significant forces from other countries in West Germany at that time. . Now if you want to learn military history I suggest you find a reputable source and stop trying to look clever on here. if you want a political debate then I'm sure someone on here will post up the link so that you no longer derail this thread with your accusations and misinformation.

I didn't say anything about 1974 you just made that up.
the country was indeed the ussr, however the citizen were still called russians.
nato was out numbered about 8 to one. If the RUSSIANS' had invaded they( nato) would all have died. The whole thing was fruitless. We would just have nuked them. The whole army on the rhine was a pointless waist of time and money

 

[Tez3]

I didn't make it up at all, just put a sock in it and return to the subject the OP posted.

 

[The Great Gigsy]

Definitely a questionable musical choice. Just not sure I'd be the one to tell them.

 

[JP3]

So you tell me, how does an average soccer fan prepare for such a scenario? Frankly, I don't think you could persuade me to go to a soccer match overseas.

Ack. I'm right there with you, Bill. I'm not doing that. I've been in some bar brawls that ended up clearing the bar, both at work and ... ahem... at play (idiocy of reckless youth), also, had two bench clearers while playing basketball, but those hardly count as they get quickly... suppressed.

I'd want to go to the match like I go to an NFL game. Sit, watch the game, jump up at great or horrible plays, yell a lot, drink a few beers and go home... all without taking a blow to the head.

 

[JR 137]

I was also in what I consider a riot while in college...

During our reunion weekend, we had a party at my fraternity house. It was a private party for us (we had "dancers" there), and we'd typically open it to the rest of the school after the dancers' performance. We had 152 brothers there that year.

A great guy who's a horrible drunk comes to the house, and two brothers are on the porch smoking a cigarette. The guy gets belligerent, and one of the brothers who's not a much better drunk jumps on him and starts punching him. The other brother tries to pull him off. As this is happening, the bar literally across the street lets out. It's also the baseball team's reunion weekend, and the 150 guys think what they see is two guys beating up on one of their own. They run out, we run out. 300 or so guys fighting in front of our house.

Everyone got beat up. Several of us accidentally hit each other, and likewise for them. It wasn't like we were wearing uniforms.

What did I do? Keep my head on a swivel and hit anyone who came at me, while trying to get guys who were hurt (on both sides, as I was good friends with a lot of the baseball guys) the hell out of there.

8 ambulances and about 20 squad cars showed up. Two guys took ambulance rides, but either had minor concussions or they couldn't differentiate between a concussion and intoxication.

No one got stabbed, shot, curb stomped or clubbed with anything. I guess it was as friendly as a riot could be. And it dispersed pretty quickly once the cops arrived. But boy was that a mess. Could've been so much worse.

 

[Buka]

Don't know squat about soccer melees. Don't want to, I don't particularly care for soccer.

Been in more melees than I care to remember, though. Half dozen as a private citizen, and too many to remember while working, most of them in Boston Public Schools during court ordered, desegregation. (sometimes, three or four a day)

Melees are awful. And they're scary. If you're working, you are at a serious disadvantage, because you're dealing with them in an official way, rather than in a way meant to protect yourself and escape. If you're working, escape isn't an option.

As a citizen - Back against a wall, head on a swivel. Run. And don't run in a direction that everyone else is running. Melees tend to follow runners.

And if you are in the middle of a running crowd, keep your arms high. You'll need them to pull you and yours above a crush if it hits a wall or a blocked exit.

 

[Tez3]

Don't know squat about soccer melees. Don't want to, I don't particularly care for soccer

They aren't really 'melees' (which sounds fairly innocuous compared to what the fights really are) they are organised and often pre-arranged fights between what are basically gangs, the football is a peripheral activity, many don't even have tickets for the matches. Usually members of the opposition gang are the targets but sometimes if you are an immigrant, Muslim or just unlucky you can get caught up in them. They are the the preserve of the far right mostly, they often belong to neo Nazi organisations as well and will turn up at any demonstration they think 'left wing' that might provide a fight. One far right neo Nazi group uses them as 'bodyguards' when they hold political rallies. Often though they are men who like fighting and will cite it as their weekend 'hobby'.
Football Hooliganism