Self Defence AGAINST an officer

[Steve]

Steve,

You failed to say what you would do as the police officer in that situation though?

thats a different conversation entirely. You keep trying to flip the narrative so that the cops are the victims and the victim is a criminal. I'm not interested in indulging you in that. This thread is about self defense against an officer.

So, to the actual topic of the thread, you're a senior citizen, you're sitting unarmed in a chair, or perhaps are jaywalking, and a cop starts escalating to the point you think he's going to tase you, strike you or shoot you. Those are the two scenarios proposed so far in this thread. What would you do. How does one defend oneself from this cop or these cops? So far, meekly comply and hope for the best is what we've been advised by the cops.

 

[CB Jones]

You keep trying to flip the narrative so that the cops are the victims and the victim is a criminal.

Not trying to victimize anyone....just pointing out the different perspective. You keep bringing up cops opinions so I'm pointing out their perspective.

So, to the actual topic of the thread, you're a senior citizen, you're sitting unarmed in a chair, or perhaps are jaywalking, and a cop starts escalating to the point you think he's going to tase you, strike you or shoot you.

You comply and de-escalate.

What do you want that senior citizen to do.....fight? pull a weapon? Escape through a dimensional portal?

Best option is to comply and handle wrongs through complaints, and court.

Again if you think you are right and the officer has no PC, authority, or the orders are unlawful then by all means fight....just be willing to accept the consequences of those actions.

 

[CB Jones]

What would you do. How does one defend oneself from this cop or these cops?

Sorry I failed to answer your question.

I would:

1). When they ask me....I'm gonna to calmly explain why I disagree with them. And will continue while they are asking me for compliance.

2) Once they begin ordering me to comply....I would comply but while doing so I'm going to tell them they are making a mistake and that I plan to take legal action.

3) afterwards go through proper channels in filing a complaint and or taking legal action against them.



This way nothing escalates and no one gets hurt. I also minimize the trouble I am in in case I am in the wrong.

 

[JP3]

I also minimize the trouble I am in in case I am in the wrong.

I have a sneaky feeling that you'd be found to be "in the wrong," down the road if you, in the example only, continued to escalate with a perhaps irrational officer. Officers are human beings, too, and can be wrong, but the legal structure has a way of defending the officer's position, even if not his/her actions, later on.

I totally agree with the "how" you'd handle it. I'd do the same.

 

[Buka]

I need a hug.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Delta increased the payout for bumping passengers. Their new policy is that the will pay up to $9,990 in compensation for a passenger that has to give voluntarily give up their seat this is their new cap. It was a good call on them. The fact is that it will probably never get up that high. Someone will probably give up their seat before it even reaches $2000. With the new policy I'm pretty sure delta passengers won't mind giving up that seat.

 

[drop bear]

thats a different conversation entirely. You keep trying to flip the narrative so that the cops are the victims and the victim is a criminal. I'm not interested in indulging you in that. This thread is about self defense against an officer.

So, to the actual topic of the thread, you're a senior citizen, you're sitting unarmed in a chair, or perhaps are jaywalking, and a cop starts escalating to the point you think he's going to tase you, strike you or shoot you. Those are the two scenarios proposed so far in this thread. What would you do. How does one defend oneself from this cop or these cops? So far, meekly comply and hope for the best is what we've been advised by the cops.

Ok. say it was a gang of hells angels. What do you think people will suggest?

 

[jks9199]

There's the disconnect. You're talking about what is typically done. I see this as an opportunity to talk about what isn't typical, but still happens. And this guy isn't a suspect.

Steve,
The problem is he BECAME a suspect when he refused to exit the plane. He became of suspect of at least 2 offenses -- trespass, and being disorderly conduct on a plane. He was offered enticements to leave the plane, and refused them. The officers warned him that if he didn't leave voluntarily, he would be removed forcibly. How long were they supposed to talk to him and try to wheedle him into leaving voluntarily? It appears the air crew members that he was losing his seat to were being moved to maintain schedules; delaying that particular plane would have disrupted the schedule of every plane along it's flight line, as well as the ones similarly impacted by the flight crew. And the planes coming into that terminal, and at each terminal along the way... Huge ripples. How long were they supposed to take?

Were there better ways to handle that incident? Hell, yes. Way before he was yanked off the plane, United had options. Even once boarded, they had other options. But he contributed to the situation, too, with his behavior. But, once the cops are involved, at some point -- he IS going to be removed from the plane. And real world use of force is not pretty.

Dirty cops are pretty rare in US, despite the press and noise from groups like BLM. And the majority of those who are don't deliver unwarranted beat downs; they're on the take in some form or another. The odds of you being in a situation with a cop who is going to deliberately harm you are very low. The best way to avoid that small risk as well as the risk of dealing with the more likely "everyday corruption?" DON'T BREAK THE LAW. Amazing how few potentially hostile encounters you'll have with the cops if you don't break the law. And avoid places where other people routinely break the law. Throw in "don't be an *******" and you'll prevent most problems, whether dealing with cops or rude clerks...

 

[Steve]

Steve,
The problem is he BECAME a suspect when he refused to exit the plane. He became of suspect of at least 2 offenses -- trespass, and being disorderly conduct on a plane. He was offered enticements to leave the plane, and refused them. The officers warned him that if he didn't leave voluntarily, he would be removed forcibly. How long were they supposed to talk to him and try to wheedle him into leaving voluntarily? It appears the air crew members that he was losing his seat to were being moved to maintain schedules; delaying that particular plane would have disrupted the schedule of every plane along it's flight line, as well as the ones similarly impacted by the flight crew. And the planes coming into that terminal, and at each terminal along the way... Huge ripples. How long were they supposed to take?

Were there better ways to handle that incident? Hell, yes. Way before he was yanked off the plane, United had options. Even once boarded, they had other options. But he contributed to the situation, too, with his behavior. But, once the cops are involved, at some point -- he IS going to be removed from the plane. And real world use of force is not pretty.

Dirty cops are pretty rare in US, despite the press and noise from groups like BLM. And the majority of those who are don't deliver unwarranted beat downs; they're on the take in some form or another. The odds of you being in a situation with a cop who is going to deliberately harm you are very low. The best way to avoid that small risk as well as the risk of dealing with the more likely "everyday corruption?" DON'T BREAK THE LAW. Amazing how few potentially hostile encounters you'll have with the cops if you don't break the law. And avoid places where other people routinely break the law. Throw in "don't be an *******" and you'll prevent most problems, whether dealing with cops or rude clerks...

All of that is understood. I think, if we live in a country where you can purchase a seat on a plane, receive a boarding pass, board with this pass and, while sitting in your assigned seat, be told you are trespassing just because, and then have that trespassing lead to having the crap beat out of you by the cops, there's a problem with our relationship with cops. it could literally happen to anyone.

So, once again, let's say you're like buka, who says he was almost shot by a cop in la for jaywalking. What would you do if you jaywalked and a cop escalates to the point you're getting the crap beat out of you? Would you just go fetal and take your licks, hoping someone has a camera? Because, that's really about all I can think of.

To be clear, this continues to be about cops defending the actions of other cops, which isn't the intent of the thread. I get that you guys think these cops were just poor guys doing their jobs beating up old people. But this thread isn't about these poor guys, helpless really, as sympathetic as their story is. I know they really didn't want to have to physically manhandle this 69 year old dude. I know it probably caused them to feel really bad. I get it.

But his thread isn't about those guys.

 

[Steve]

Ok. say it was a gang of hells angels. What do you think people will suggest?

Truly, I wonder what the cops here would say in answer to this question.

 

[Steve]

Sorry I failed to answer your question.

I would:

1). When they ask me....I'm gonna to calmly explain why I disagree with them. And will continue while they are asking me for compliance.

2) Once they begin ordering me to comply....I would comply but while doing so I'm going to tell them they are making a mistake and that I plan to take legal action.

3) afterwards go through proper channels in filing a complaint and or taking legal action against them.



This way nothing escalates and no one gets hurt. I also minimize the trouble I am in in case I am in the wrong.

Wait, so when the cop starts beating on you, you'd calmly ask him to stop? Lol. The thing is, cops can be erratic, and while they escalate well, they don't deescalate very well at all.

Of course, de ograohics and locality matter, and will have a huge impact on the likelihood that an interaction will go south.

 

[jks9199]

Truly, I wonder what the cops here would say in answer to this question.

If you know what you're doing, a biker gang is quite easy to deal with. Kind of like diving with sharks... Dangerous, but handled properly, manageable.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Steve]

If you know what you're doing, a biker gang is quite easy to deal with. Kind of like diving with sharks... Dangerous, but handled properly, manageable.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Is it a secret? Would similar tactics work with cops?

 

[CB Jones]

Wait, so when the cop starts beating on you, you'd calmly ask him to stop? Lol. The thing is, cops can be erratic, and while they escalate well, they don't deescalate very well at all.

No I wouldn't give him a reason to start beating on me.

But to answer your question if it is a rogue cop making an illegal attack:

I dunno....maybe the smart thing to do is like another poster said...maybe fetal position up and hope they stop.... Because you are being illegally attacked by someone who is much more armed than you....do you want to take the chance of this rogue cop resorting to lethal force?


Remove the fact that its a cop.....if an attacker armed with a gun starts beating on you what do you do? Same thing if that officer is not working under the color of the law.

Also, its harder for me to give advice in this because I am always armed so I am never at as much of a disadvantage as others. Truthfully, an illegal attack on me that threatens my life...I'm going to handle with force, but I'm going to do so along my force continuum training. I understand that alot of people do not have that at their disposal.

 

[Steve]

No I wouldn't give him a reason to start beating on you.

But to answer your question if it is a rogue cop making an illegal attack:

I dunno....maybe the smart thing to do is like another poster said...maybe fetal position up and hope they stop.... Because you are being illegally attacked by someone who is much more armed than you....do you want to take the chance of this rogue cop resorting to lethal force?


Remove the fact that its a cop.....if an attacker armed with a gun starts beating on you what do you do? Same difference if that officer is not working under the color of the law.

Also, its harder for me to give advice in this because I am always armed so I am never at as much of a disadvantage as others. Truthfully, an illegal attack on me that threatens my life...I'm going to handle with force, but I'm going to do so along my force continuum training. I understand that alot of people do not have that at their disposal.

The recommendation to go fetal, and hope someone has a camera running, was me. Maybe other people, too, if I missed it. Great minds, and all that.

Okay. you guys are having trouble considering this from a non-cop perspective. Try this. Do you think that beating up a senior citizen is an appropriate response to any non-violent situation? As cops, do you think escalating a non-violent situation and making it violent is good policing? To be clear, I'm not talking about where a guy has a weapon in hand or is threatening people. I'm talking about jaywalkers (which you guys don't seem to want to address as I've asked several times what you would do in buka's situation), people trespassing on a plane in the chairs they purchased... things like that. This may be the crux of the problem here. I think that's bad juju. It may be legal, but it's a bad sign, and people know it. I think on some level, you guys have to know it, too, or you wouldn't have worked so hard to control the narrative in this thread.

 

[drop bear]

The recommendation to go fetal, and hope someone has a camera running, was me. Maybe other people, too, if I missed it. Great minds, and all that.

Okay. you guys are having trouble considering this from a non-cop perspective. Try this. Do you think that beating up a senior citizen is an appropriate response to any non-violent situation? As cops, do you think escalating a non-violent situation and making it violent is good policing? To be clear, I'm not talking about where a guy has a weapon in hand or is threatening people. I'm talking about jaywalkers (which you guys don't seem to want to address as I've asked several times what you would do in buka's situation), people trespassing on a plane in the chairs they purchased... things like that. This may be the crux of the problem here. I think that's bad juju. It may be legal, but it's a bad sign, and people know it. I think on some level, you guys have to know it, too, or you wouldn't have worked so hard to control the narrative in this thread.

I would have dragged him. Not sure what the issue is. I got paid to get people out of places. Guys,girls,old people, young people,people I liked.

I don't drag people as a first response. But I do drag them. If they say they are not going to leave. Of course I escalate a non fight into a fight.

Precisely people who have paid to enter. Precisely people who are tresspassing.

That is what these jobs entail.

As far as the narrative there is nobody controling it really. if a bunch of guys who can kill you want to beat you up. Then they beat you up. There really isnt much wriggle room.

You seem to be trying to find a nice work around I dont think there is one. If you have a nice work around come up with one. Balls kind of in your corner.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. so lets turn this around and suggest that the authority is on the wrong side of the power struggle.

Security working at Maccas out manned.

Same problem same solution really. Feotal up ride out the beating.

 

[Juany118]

In terms of defending yourself against a police officer it is complicated. First keep in mind I am going to base this on the assumption that the officer had some reason to retain or arrest.

The physical force would start if you decided to resist detention/arrest. Whether or not it is legal to do so if you THINK the detention is unlawful is actually a State by State kinda thing however resisting arrest and/or defending yourself, imo, is perhaps the stupidest thing to do, even if you think you are right, here's why.

First you could very well be in error. The number of times someone has screamed "false arrest" when I had only lawfully detained them is almost without count, even after I said "You are only being detained, you are not under arrest." If you match the description of a suspect you may get detained, and released when shown not to be the bad guy, as one example. Thing is the officer isn't under a legal obligation to tell you what's going on right out of the gate. He could be trying to detain you because a gun point robbery occurred around the corner BUT he plans on keeping his mouth shut about why until you are detained because IF you were the robber you may run or pull that gun so the officer may come up with a pretext statement to detain you, yep we can lie and BS suspects.

Second if you are right BUT the Officer in question is acting in "good faith" his actions are still technically legal and your actions illegal, that is why most resisting arrest statues contain language like "resisting a lawful arrest or discharging any lawful duty.

The use of force the officer can use is directly tied to your level of resistance. So you are passively resisting I can joint lock you or OC Spray you. You start pulling away or trying to break my lock I can start kneeing the heck out you or case you. You start swinging and I can pull my baton to block your strikes and apply locks. If you evidence martial arts skill, superior strength I can then start actively sacking you with the baton. If that doesn't work and you persist in the "defense"/assault I can likely justify shooting you.

It's just overall a bad idea, better to just go with the program and avoid having to "defend" yourself and then, if the officer was in the wrong file an Act 1983 law suit.

 

[Buka]

I still need a hug.

Ugly thread.

 

[JP3]

Throw in "don't be an *******" and you'll prevent most problems, whether dealing with cops or rude clerks...

It is amazing to me how many people forget that simple truth.