Secret hyung in Korea? Tang soo do, soo bahk do

[reeve87]

Hi folks I was reading a post on a fb group and someone mentioned the chil sung & yok ro forms where shared with the USA and elsewhere and some hyung where kept exclusively for Korean practitioners only, I'm curious if this is true or myth?
Also if it's true why not share?
If it is true does anyone have footage they would be willing to share? Or have any insight into this. Thanks hope your all well.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me.

 

[Gweilo]

There be dragons, in dem der hills, comes to mind, it is possible, but I very much doubt its true, that's the difference between a forum and fb, on a forum you get to discuss your statements.

 

[david chong]

yes that is absolutely not true.

 

[Master K]

I own the Soo Bahk Do Dae Gahm Volume 2 from Korea. And in that book is a set of hyungs called the Ship Dan Geom Hyungs. I had heard that the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan group in Korea had learned the Ship Dan Geom Hyungs along with the Yuk Ro Hyungs and Hwa Sun Hyung. The rest of the Soo Bahk Do practitioners scattered around the world was to learn the Yuk Ro Hyungs, Chil Sung Hyungs and Hwa Sun Hyung. The rumor I heard was that when Soo Bahk Do practitioners would meet, they could exchange and discuss the Chil Sung Hyungs and Ship Dan Geom Hyungs. I am not sure that I totally subscribe to that theory, but I can tell you that the Ship Dan Geom Hyungs exist. And some of the Senior Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Masters are learning those Hyungs and starting to teach them in limited fashion in the US. I am not sure if they have started to spread to the UK as of yet.

 

[dancingalone]

I own the Soo Bahk Do Dae Gahm Volume 2 from Korea. And in that book is a set of hyungs called the Ship Dan Geom Hyungs. I had heard that the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan group in Korea had learned the Ship Dan Geom Hyungs along with the Yuk Ro Hyungs and Hwa Sun Hyung. The rest of the Soo Bahk Do practitioners scattered around the world was to learn the Yuk Ro Hyungs, Chil Sung Hyungs and Hwa Sun Hyung. The rumor I heard was that when Soo Bahk Do practitioners would meet, they could exchange and discuss the Chil Sung Hyungs and Ship Dan Geom Hyungs. I am not sure that I totally subscribe to that theory, but I can tell you that the Ship Dan Geom Hyungs exist. And some of the Senior Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Masters are learning those Hyungs and starting to teach them in limited fashion in the US. I am not sure if they have started to spread to the UK as of yet.

Old post but I haven't been active on the board in a while...

I learned all the Chil Sung forms up through Yuk Rho. I find some of the stances difficult to get into. I wished I had learned them as a younger man. I believe the Ship Dan Kuhm forms are just pieces and variations of the Eight Pieces of Brocade. Am I wrong?

 

[TenHands]

Any martial artist that withholds or gatekeeps forms does not get my respect. If this is true, this is not good.

 

[dancingalone]

Any martial artist that withholds or gatekeeps forms does not get my respect. If this is true, this is not good.

I am not sure why some on this thread find the idea unbelievable. It is in my opinion actually common. Look at the Chinese arts, there's plenty of forms/sets reserved for favorite students or 'family'. I mean the same thing happens everywhere - it doesn't have to be a form we are talking about. Consider that the students that work the hardest and the longest inevitably get more time with their teachers. In the more advanced classes, often during 1-on-1 instruction, they get more refined tips because they can benefit from it, having done the prerequisite training, versus the students that come to class twice a week and so they only get the shell, and not the heart.

As a teacher, I also have some extra kata I accumulated from a lifetime of study. They aren't part of the regular curriculum so I guess they are 'secret', but I have taught them to students that heavily invested in their studies with me as a reward.

 

[TenHands]

I am not sure why some on this thread find the idea unbelievable. It is in my opinion actually common. Look at the Chinese arts, there's plenty of forms/sets reserved for favorite students or 'family'. I mean the same thing happens everywhere - it doesn't have to be a form we are talking about. Consider that the students that work the hardest and the longest inevitably get more time with their teachers. In the more advanced classes, often during 1-on-1 instruction, they get more refined tips because they can benefit from it, having done the prerequisite training, versus the students that come to class twice a week and so they only get the shell, and not the heart.

As a teacher, I also have some extra kata I accumulated from a lifetime of study. They aren't part of the regular curriculum so I guess they are 'secret', but I have taught them to students that heavily invested in their studies with me as a reward.

I am of a much lower level of experience than you, so I hope I'm not being pompous here, but the way I see it is that nothing is sacred, especially in martial arts. From what I've been taught, a martial artist mustn't be vain about their ability or hold themselves in a higher regard than other students. This "secret kata" concept seems to be teetering on vanity/narcissism, as though its creator feels their techniques are "too powerful" or "too exclusive" to teach to the masses, and that only they and a select few people are "worthy" to learn it.

Though I have to admit teaching with a reward system does have its perks; I remember back a few years ago working extra hard on my green belt test and feeling so excited when I finally got to learn Pyung Ahn Sam Dan (and then working extra hard on it because of how much I loved it).

In a nutshell, I see where you are coming from in regard to the reward incentive for kata, but keeping a kata "secret" seems fishy, not to mention somewhat impossible to do. This is especially true nowadays where I, for example, can easily go on YouTube and teach myself the Hwa-Rang Hyung (a "secret" Tang Soo Do hyung only taught to the highest-level masters, distinct from the ITF form of the same name).

 

[dancingalone]

I am of a much lower level of experience than you, so I hope I'm not being pompous here, but the way I see it is that nothing is sacred, especially in martial arts. From what I've been taught, a martial artist mustn't be vain about their ability or hold themselves in a higher regard than other students. This "secret kata" concept seems to be teetering on vanity/narcissism, as though its creator feels their techniques are "too powerful" or "too exclusive" to teach to the masses, and that only they and a select few people are "worthy" to learn it.

Though I have to admit teaching with a reward system does have its perks; I remember back a few years ago working extra hard on my green belt test and feeling so excited when I finally got to learn Pyung Ahn Sam Dan (and then working extra hard on it because of how much I loved it).

In a nutshell, I see where you are coming from in regard to the reward incentive for kata, but keeping a kata "secret" seems fishy, not to mention somewhat impossible to do. This is especially true nowadays where I, for example, can easily go on YouTube and teach myself the Hwa-Rang Hyung (a "secret" Tang Soo Do hyung only taught to the highest-level masters, distinct from the ITF form of the same name).

You mean Hwa Sun? There are at least two of those floating around. I don't know it myself but I don't particularly care to learn it. If you already know and are studying an internal style, I say stick with it instead of going into a blind alley with GM Hwang's inventions.

I do not hold material back from a position of thinking they are 'too powerful' or 'too exclusive'. It's simply from pragmatism. I can show new students a lot of things, but they won't be able to repeat it. They won't even understand what they are seeing. It takes a period of study to get there. Some concepts are more difficult than others, more refined for lack of a better word. I teach this stuff to my best students. Yes, it's a reward, but it's also because they're the people that benefit from it as opposed to their less commited peers.

But perhaps I should clarify what I mean by secret. In my school, other students know the 'secret' stuff/forms exists because I or the top students occasionally demo it. The forms aren't anything too magical - just Okinawan karate forms with my own understanding of aiki and internal arts layered on top of them. Sure you can 'learn' the choreography of the form or close enough by studying a YouTube video. But you won't get my private understanding of the waza without training with me. Make sense? I don't claim that I have anything that uniquely powerful or that someone with my same experiences over time can't duplicate it. But I do think it's easier said than done to do so.

 

[TenHands]

You mean Hwa Sun? There are at least two of those floating around. I don't know it myself but I don't particularly care to learn it. If you already know and are studying an internal style, I say stick with it instead of going into a blind alley with GM Hwang's inventions.

I do not hold material back from a position of thinking they are 'too powerful' or 'too exclusive'. It's simply from pragmatism. I can show new students a lot of things, but they won't be able to repeat it. They won't even understand what they are seeing. It takes a period of study to get there. Some concepts are more difficult than others, more refined for lack of a better word. I teach this stuff to my best students. Yes, it's a reward, but it's also because they're the people that benefit from it as opposed to their less commited peers.

Ah, I was referring to a different hyung altogether. As far as I know, Hwa Sun is a SBD hyung while Hwa Rang appears in some more classical TSD schools.

You make a valid point about certain students being more committed/responsible with certain techniques/forms than others; me teaching a white belt Bassai-Sho, for example, will not be as worthwhile to them as, say, teaching them Taikyoku Shodan. When I was talking about "exclusivity" with forms, I was more referring to the occasional master who actually creates their own form and treats it like some high-and-mighty masterpiece of theirs. I remember seeing a demo of a Grandmaster going on a 2-minute speech about a form he created, declaring it to be a "rare" and "special" form, doing it very poorly, and then being praised as though he were a god amongst men.

I personally have bad experiences with cultism/indoctrination in martial arts so I'm somewhat biased to be against that sort of thing, but that might be just me.

 

[dancingalone]

Ah, I was referring to a different hyung altogether. As far as I know, Hwa Sun is a SBD hyung while Hwa Rang appears in some more classical TSD schools.

You make a valid point about certain students being more committed/responsible with certain techniques/forms than others; me teaching a white belt Bassai-Sho, for example, will not be as worthwhile to them as, say, teaching them Taikyoku Shodan. When I was talking about "exclusivity" with forms, I was more referring to the occasional master who actually creates their own form and treats it like some high-and-mighty masterpiece of theirs. I remember seeing a demo of a Grandmaster going on a 2-minute speech about a form he created, declaring it to be a "rare" and "special" form, doing it very poorly, and then being praised as though he were a god amongst men.

I personally have bad experiences with cultism/indoctrination in martial arts so I'm somewhat biased to be against that sort of thing, but that might be just me.

I do know Hwa Rang. Did the non-sinewave version. I came up in Jhoon Rhee TKD (he was a Chung Do Kwan early BB that converted to General Choi's forms but he dissolved his ties with Choi before the general added the sinewave movement). As far as I know it is a TKD form and it would be uncommon for people of Moo Duk Kwan lineage that use the Tang Soo Do moniker to practice it.

I may be jaded but I rarely see an original form worth studying. Most of the time, its just re-arranging the movements in other forms. Like if you know the Pinan/Pyung Ahn do you really need to learn the ITF forms? I argue no (at least for the under BB ones). It's not from some type of ageism snobbery - every form was made up at some point by somebody after all.

Your opinion is as worthy as anyone's. I just wanted to note that it is reality that the best students get more from their teachers. That could mean more forms, more concepts, more social conversation, more time. That is the nature of the beast. It is a 2-way street. The teacher invests too in his students. Show you are worthy of investment and who knows what will pop up in your lessons.

 

[Graywalker]

This is weird, to be upset that is, clearly in Karate, the old teachers held things back...not sure why anyone is surprised that it happened through Korean arts.