Second only to God?

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Hey, I second that emotion, but who listens?

God ??????

 

[KanoLives]

WOW.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Why don't you see it the other way round? Does there have to be an individual who is second to other one?
Thus, everyone of us is second only to God and have to answer to him/herself and god and no one else

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Why don't you see it the other way round? Does there have to be an individual who is second to other one?
Thus, everyone of us is second only to God and have to answer to him/herself and god and no one else

i don't dare to do that. I would leave that suggestion to PROUD AK boys and girls to follow

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

A bit late to the thread (argh, i missed the argument), But I'm still astonished that people believe that forms are bad?!?! I guess that part of the thread just kinda died out. After reading this entire thread, i HAD to post something up.

What is wrong with forms?? Rob had some valid points about why forms are important, and I never heard any valid argument as to why not, only "don't do them". Personally I agree with Rob, they are required in order to get a better understanding. Of course one should aways spar; give and recieve contact from an opponent. But the person whom spars AND practices forms will have a better vocabulary/comprehension of techniques and fluidity of motion. Similar to a Thaiboxer only doing ring fights and NEVER shadowboxing. It all ties back to the theory of "Formless form". I suppose its all about how you look at forms though. I personally see forms as one long set of movements comprised of sub-sets. Most arts that I've come across have some type of "form-like" sets in them, whether it's admitted or not. How else can one practice if there is no one to practice against?? without a partner?

I'd have to say that I find alot of truth in Rob's statements. I've been in the ring myself, and the Ring is NOT fighting. It may be close, but there is waaaay to many variables in an actual fight to reproduce fighting in a controlled environment, but I'm sure MJS knows that already. Fighting is chaos, and therefore can't be reproduced the same exact way.

I don't know much about KM, but it sounds like the comparison between Kenpo and KM, would be similar to that of Ju-jutsu and Brazilian ju-jutsu.

Excuse me for re-hashing the topics from the thread that have died out. There are just sooo many controversial points in this thread that I wanted to participate in.

:asian: :asian:

THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't have a problem with forms, but negative things can occur. First of all you have people doing long 5 that can barely mudlle through long 1 or short 2. That means you are training and reinforcing, with repetition, a bad motion index that will take a hell of a lot longer to unlearn than it did to learn. Just my two cents.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Orig. posted by Touch'O'Death
I don't have a problem with forms,

but negative things can occur.

First of all you have people doing long 5 that can barely mudlle through long 1 or short 2.

That means you are training and reinforcing, with repetition, a bad motion index that will take a hell of a lot longer to unlearn than it did to learn. Just my two cents.

:rofl: I had to chuckle at your answer TOD, I agree with you, I don't have a problem with forms, I like them for a number of reasons.

However, in the next line you state, "but negative things can occur".

You go on to cite... that "PEOPLE" that are doing long 5 can barely muddle thru Long 1 or short 2! :rofl: I hate to break it to ya' but it's not the forms fault... but rather the <<<<<<<<<<<people or their instructors>>>>>>:rofl: (I don't disagree that this happens but it's not the system or the forms fault is all).

Continuing you state.....
"you are training and reinforcing, with repetition, a bad motion index that will take a hell of a lot longer to unlearn than it did to learn".

Agreed, A Question for you.. "Why is there always time to do it over,
When there is never time to do it right"!

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
:rofl: I had to chuckle at your answer TOD, I agree with you, I don't have a problem with forms, I like them for a number of reasons.

However, in the next line you state, "but negative things can occur".

You go on to cite... that "PEOPLE" that are doing long 5 can barely muddle thru Long 1 or short 2! :rofl: I hate to break it to ya' but it's not the forms fault... but rather the <<<<<<<<<<<people or their instructors>>>>>>:rofl: (I don't disagree that this happens but it's not the system or the forms fault is all).

Continuing you state.....
"you are training and reinforcing, with repetition, a bad motion index that will take a hell of a lot longer to unlearn than it did to learn".
Golden dragon,
My point was that the forms themselves arent the problem its the rushing to know them for your collection that is the problem. My intstructor just held a short one class a few months ago, and as it would turn, you could just about fill the grand canyon with what I (and I'm sure many others) don't know about short one. Now there is a master key form.
Sean

Agreed, A Question for you.. "Why is there always time to do it over,
When there is never time to do it right"!

:asian:

Here I go screwing up another post, my response is in your quote somewhere :xtrmshock
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Orig posted by Touch'O'Death
My response is in your quote somewhere :xtrmshock Sean

I know...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Golden Dragon,
I was a purple belt when I joined the ARMY, one day I happened to be reading a Karate Mag and found myself standing next to that "Kimo" guy they are talking about on the other thread. He asked me if I knew long six or seven and I laughed and said no, because my instructor didn't believe in teaching advanced forms to lowerbelts. "Kimo" then explained that my instructor must not be an Ed Parker Black Belt. I was pissed and wanted to hit the guy. As It would turn this would have been the last move I made on this earth. He invited me to train at his school. I did and unfortunantly he shipped away only a few months later. That had more kenpo in his little finger than I did in my whole body and as it would turn out He only spoke with Ed Parker about an excessive contact issue in the Internationals. I still stuck with kenpo, of course, but my eyes were opened to the world a little those few months.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Orig posted by Touch'O'Death
"Kimo" opened my eyes to the world, those few months that I spent with him. Sean

"When the student is ready, the instructor will appear"!

:asian:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt
A bit late to the thread (argh, i missed the argument), But I'm still astonished that people believe that forms are bad?!?! I guess that part of the thread just kinda died out. After reading this entire thread, i HAD to post something up.

What is wrong with forms?? Rob had some valid points about why forms are important, and I never heard any valid argument as to why not, only "don't do them". Personally I agree with Rob, they are required in order to get a better understanding. Of course one should aways spar; give and recieve contact from an opponent. But the person whom spars AND practices forms will have a better vocabulary/comprehension of techniques and fluidity of motion. Similar to a Thaiboxer only doing ring fights and NEVER shadowboxing. It all ties back to the theory of "Formless form". I suppose its all about how you look at forms though. I personally see forms as one long set of movements comprised of sub-sets. Most arts that I've come across have some type of "form-like" sets in them, whether it's admitted or not. How else can one practice if there is no one to practice against?? without a partner?

Regarding my outlook on forms. Do I mind doing them? No. Are they a way to practice your punches and kicks? Yes. Do they give you a good cardio workout? Yes. Are there SD moves hidden in the katas? Yes. As you can see, I listed a few positive things you get from kata. However, I dont think that they are necessary to do in order to learn to defend yourself. There are many arts out there that do not do kata, and yet, the students of those arts are very capable of defending themselves. I dont think that you need to have any "special ability" to do these arts, like it is so often said by certain people here. You dont need to have any prior training before you start JKD. Sure, like any art, if you have prior training, it will give you an edge, but its not a requirement. You're honestly going to look at forms and compare it to something like sparring? Sure you can have someone 'attack' you while you're going through the moves, but IMO, you'll get better results sparring.

I'd have to say that I find alot of truth in Rob's statements. I've been in the ring myself, and the Ring is NOT fighting. It may be close, but there is waaaay to many variables in an actual fight to reproduce fighting in a controlled environment, but I'm sure MJS knows that already. Fighting is chaos, and therefore can't be reproduced the same exact way.

You're right. I do know that already!!! You cant compare the UFC to a brawl on the street. If you pad up properly, then you'll be able to practice some of the things that you can do on the street.

Mike

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by MJS
Regarding my outlook on forms. Do I mind doing them? No. Are they a way to practice your punches and kicks? Yes. Do they give you a good cardio workout? Yes. Are there SD moves hidden in the katas? Yes. As you can see, I listed a few positive things you get from kata. However, I dont think that they are necessary to do in order to learn to defend yourself. There are many arts out there that do not do kata, and yet, the students of those arts are very capable of defending themselves. I dont think that you need to have any "special ability" to do these arts, like it is so often said by certain people here. You dont need to have any prior training before you start JKD. Sure, like any art, if you have prior training, it will give you an edge, but its not a requirement. You're honestly going to look at forms and compare it to something like sparring? Sure you can have someone 'attack' you while you're going through the moves, but IMO, you'll get better results sparring.



You're right. I do know that already!!! You cant compare the UFC to a brawl on the street. If you pad up properly, then you'll be able to practice some of the things that you can do on the street.

Mike

Sorry if I mis-understood your previous post, but it seemed as though you were relating the ring as actual fighting.

I'm glad you see some purpose to forms!! But I'm also sad, because you are deluded as to the true purpose of forms. With anything, some will be good, and some will be bad. But the purpose of the forms IS for self-defense. If you want to learn how to fight, you have to go pick fights. But since most of us will be imprisoned or seriously damaged, we have to find other methods that will get as close as possible. Maybe our definition of "forms" are different. What is the underlining factor in which you feel forms won't help you to defend yourself?? Most arts have some type of forms (i.e. pre-arranged sets) incorporated in them. Can you name a few that don't contain some type of pre-arranged movements? when you really think about it??

Orginally posted by MJS :
I dont think that you need to have any "special ability" to do these arts, like it is so often said by certain people here. You dont need to have any prior training before you start JKD. Sure, like any art, if you have prior training, it will give you an edge, but its not a requirement.

No one is saying that "special abillity" is required to perform an art. But as you said, it will give you an edge... thus making you a bit more efficient at that particular art. Just like the laws of physics, you do not need to study them to fuction, but they will give you a better understanding, which will intern cause you to function more efficiently.

:asian: :asian:
THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt

Sorry if I mis-understood your previous post, but it seemed as though you were relating the ring as actual fighting.

Nope, and sorry for any confusion I might have given. It is my opinion as well as a few others that I train with, that they only way to get better at something, is to actually go and do it. Granted, on the street you have many more options compared to sparring. I do believe though, that it is possible to train your 'street' techs. in training, without actually hurting your partner.

I'm glad you see some purpose to forms!! But I'm also sad, because you are deluded as to the true purpose of forms. With anything, some will be good, and some will be bad. But the purpose of the forms IS for self-defense. If you want to learn how to fight, you have to go pick fights. But since most of us will be imprisoned or seriously damaged, we have to find other methods that will get as close as possible. Maybe our definition of "forms" are different. What is the underlining factor in which you feel forms won't help you to defend yourself?? Most arts have some type of forms (i.e. pre-arranged sets) incorporated in them. Can you name a few that don't contain some type of pre-arranged movements? when you really think about it??

I have trained in Kenpo as well as Modern Arnis, both of which have many forms. If you look at George Dillman, he is probably one of the best people to give you breakdowns of the applications in your katas. Can I take a move from a Kenpo or Arnis kata and apply it to a SD situation? Sure. After all, its no different than taking a Kenpo SD tech. and using that! All I'm saying is, is that I disagree with statements that people have made, saying that they teach you how to fight. Sure, to a point, but that IMO, is not the solution.

I have to disagree with your statement, saying that if you want to learn to fight, you need to go out and pick fights. There are realistic and alive ways to train without getting hurt. For example, if you want to train knife disarms, why not use a knife that has ink, paint, or lipstick on the edges so you can see where you 'got cut.' Is it a real knife? No. But, it will give you a better idea how your disarms are working. Can you practice your headbutts, eye jabs, and elbows on someone safely? Of course. Paul Vunak has shown this many times.

Again, I"m not saying that they are totally worthless, but they should not be put as high on the scale as some think. Again, jsut my opinion.

No one is saying that "special abillity" is required to perform an art. But as you said, it will give you an edge... thus making you a bit more efficient at that particular art. Just like the laws of physics, you do not need to study them to fuction, but they will give you a better understanding, which will intern cause you to function more efficiently.

Unless I"m reading it wrong, which is very possible, I have read statements saying that arts like KM are for people that are all ready in excellent shape, have some prior skill, etc. This is not the case. One of my training partners recently condutced a KM course. In it he had people with no skill to people with much skill. And the people with no or little skill picked up on things quickly and were very happy with the results they got.

Mike

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by MJS
Nope, and sorry for any confusion I might have given. It is my opinion as well as a few others that I train with, that the only way to get better at something, is to actually go and do it.

It seems that you agree with my statement about picking fights, atleast to some degree. But then you also stated that you disagree with my statement as well when you said:

I have to disagree with your statement, saying that if you want to learn to fight, you need to go out and pick fights.

So I would assume that you're in partial agreement with me? I would also say that you would be better prepared for a fight by practicing the sequences you speak of; versus someone whom has no knowledge at all, but is it actually fighting?? no. My point is simply that fighting can not be duplicated in a controlled setting. Practicing a technique to defend yourself, and actually DEFENDING yourself with a practiced technique, are two very separate things. This is why I say, if you want to learn to fight, you must go pick fights. Like you said, there are many different variables in fighting; and they can't be duplicated in a controlled environment. The only way to touch face on some of those variables, is through the experiences of actual combat, IMHO. To add, this is why I said we must utilize sets that are a s real as possible. Even Burt Richardson, whom demonstrates very realistic practice drills; recognizes the drills as only drills.

I see that you view forms as a valuable learning tool, great!! I can agree with you on the importance factor that people place on forms. Forms alone will not teach *good* self-defense. And at times, Instructor's value the perfection of the form.... so they may stress the importance of it a little too much. If thats the case, then the form itself is not at fault, the problem lies in the ciriculum of that particluar school you speak of. Forms serve only as a supplementary tool, just as most other drills and sets. Only with the complete package can one learn more efficiently.

:asian: :aisan:
THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt
It seems that you agree with my statement about picking fights, atleast to some degree. But then you also stated that you disagree with my statement as well when you said:



So I would assume that you're in partial agreement with me? I would also say that you would be better prepared for a fight by practicing the sequences you speak of; versus someone whom has no knowledge at all, but is it actually fighting?? no. My point is simply that fighting can not be duplicated in a controlled setting. Practicing a technique to defend yourself, and actually DEFENDING yourself with a practiced technique, are two very separate things. This is why I say, if you want to learn to fight, you must go pick fights. Like you said, there are many different variables in fighting; and they can't be duplicated in a controlled environment. The only way to touch face on some of those variables, is through the experiences of actual combat, IMHO. To add, this is why I said we must utilize sets that are a s real as possible. Even Burt Richardson, whom demonstrates very realistic practice drills; recognizes the drills as only drills.

I see that you view forms as a valuable learning tool, great!! I can agree with you on the importance factor that people place on forms. Forms alone will not teach *good* self-defense. And at times, Instructor's value the perfection of the form.... so they may stress the importance of it a little too much. If thats the case, then the form itself is not at fault, the problem lies in the ciriculum of that particluar school you speak of. Forms serve only as a supplementary tool, just as most other drills and sets. Only with the complete package can one learn more efficiently.

:asian: :aisan:
THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

Points well taken! Question for you. You mention that in order to learn to fight, you must go and pick a fight. You mention that learning to defend yourself and then actually "defending" yourself are two different things, and yes, I agree. My question is: If thats the case, then why take the time to learn the techs.? If there is not a 100% confidence in what you are learning, then why bother learning it, if it might not help you? I guess what I was trying to say when I made that comment, was, to always try to train as real as possible. An example: Peyton Quinn has a course in adrenal stress training. He has an "attacker" in a padded suit. He then has the student, which is literallly put into a very stressfull situation. This "attacker" does everything from pushing, shoving, getting in his face, name calling, etc. Why do this? Of course the "attacker" isnt really going to hurt the person. The idea is to trick the mind and body into thinking that it is a life and death situation. Seeing that the "attacker" is padded, it allows the defender to basically go full force.

Granted, these suits are expensive and not everybody has access to them, so in that case, you need to do as much as you can to make your training sessions a productive workout.

Mike

 

[parkerkarate]

My goodness. Mr. Parker vs. anybody would be like WWIII, I do not think anyone could beat Mr. Parker at anytime. Yes I have heard stories of him getting hurt, but I have heard more stories of Mr. Parker putting holes through peoples lips. So I would feel sorry for any shmoe that would ever try to fight Mr. Parker.

 

[8253]

Anyone can beat anyone at any time, day or place. After all no one can be the best at any art every day.

 

[Basicman]

What gets me about reading this thread is how people appear to make there Martial Art the solution to everything or the basis of other arts. Also people talk about training like they have to "defend the village from the raiding hoard." Especially in the United States, violent crime is not a daily common occurance for most people. Most people in major metro areas know how to take care of themselves by using observance and advoidance. I am not saying to give up Martial Arts, because they are fun to do. But let's realize that doing a set self defense technique over and over again does not guarantee a successful outcome. Actually the more complex the mpvement, the more likely you are to fail. The nervous system gets saturated and can not handle the overload. So basic gross movements will probably only be succesful in some one who does not spar on a regular basis. In my experience, people who have not experinced being hit hard, freeze up. I think people need to learn just plain basics for anything to be useful and they also need to spar.

--John

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, I was wit' ya right up until you started the common ranking on techniques, forms, etc.

Problem with your argument is that it will work ONLY for a blessed few. Nearly everybody needs some sort of system to learn things like getting hit, focus, etc.

Once upon a time, much of the structure was provided by family, society, etc. The system of kenpo is there to provide much of what is no longer there, "outside," the studio, dojo, or what have you.