Second only to God?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by MJS
So are you telling me that Mike Tyson would not be able to fight in the street??

Well, he broke his hand, didn't he?

Thanks for the plucking description!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by arnisador

Well, he broke his hand, didn't he?

Yes he did. See, it just goes to show that even a prof. fighter can have his bad days.

Thanks for the plucking description!

You're welcome. Again, I'm no master of this art (KM) by any means. My input is based soley on what I have been taught, and from what I have seen from some of the higher ranked KM guys.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by arnisador
Well, he broke his hand, didn't he?

Thanks for the plucking description!

Martial artist break their hands all the time. Just a thought.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Well, MJS, that certainly avoided the issues.

I'm going to skip over the issues about "the ring," and about "plucking," except to briefly note that a) I've repeatedly posted on this and other threads concerning the clear fact that the likes of me and thee would do well to avoid, "on the street," fights with the likes of Bart Vale or Joe Lewis, and b) for all the irrelevant comments, plucking as described is indeed included in the kenpo curriculum I learned.

Ok.

I notice that neither a) the comments I made about kenpo as a teaching system, or b) a method of understanding other arts seem to've gotten addressed. I also note that none of the comments seem to address the issue I addressed, the one of how students actually learn.

Kenpo as a system-- Yes, it does have its pros and cons.

Understanding other arts- Why do you want to do that when all you have to do is train in Kenpo to be able to know everything?

How students learn-They learn from having a good teacher as well as taking the time to devote to learn the material being taught.

All the name-calling (traditionalist! kata-doer! slavish disciple of dead kenpo god!) still won't change what I take to be the facts: a) very few people will learn self-defense without extended, and complex, training; b) big, aggressive guys and smaller, athletic and aggressive guys will have a lot of success in fighting and this does not necessarily mean that they know jack about martial arts; c) kenpo, as far as I can see, offers a more-complex and comprehensive understanding of martial arts principles and concepts.

In response to the above.

A- It doesnt take 50 yrs to learn how to be a good fighter Rob. I know for a fact that a blue belt in BJJ could wipe the mat with a karate Brown belt.

B- Youre right

C- Ok. But if you never look outside the box Rob, how can you compare your art to others?

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ed parker broke his foot didn't he? Or Mike Pick accidently drove somone's teeth through his foot didn't he?

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Ed parker broke his foot didn't he? Or Mike Pick accidently drove somone's teeth through his foot didn't he?

OK
OUCH!!!

 

[rmcrobertson]

How in the heck does anybody know what box I inhabit, or how often and how carefully I peep around the edges?

I guess that's all part of that open-mindedness I keep hearing so much about.

Ah, the fantasy that newer technology is better. Faster education is better. More-efficient study is better. The dream of speed and power...

Me n' Giles, we know better. But then, I've been a teacher for over twenty years...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
How in the heck does anybody know what box I inhabit, or how often and how carefully I peep around the edges?

I guess that's all part of that open-mindedness I keep hearing so much about.

Ah, the fantasy that newer technology is better. Faster education is better. More-efficient study is better. The dream of speed and power...

Me n' Giles, we know better. But then, I've been a teacher for over twenty years...

Actualy Robert there is a school of thought that all sujects should be taught at once in project form rather than seperatly. You've been doing the old school for twenty years but some countries are rejecting those tried and true methods as well. I say Krav is just another filter to help us understand but rejecting it for the sake of believing you are in a truer martial art is not going to help you.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by T'O'Dth
Does every one feel that Ed Parkers skills can never be matched by any human being?

Well, If what he [Ed Parker] accomplished wasn't so darn Logical and well laid out it would be a lot easier to dispute! As for his personal physical skills, I think he helped many a person beyond many of his personal abilities, but few had/have his warriors heart and scholars mind in one package.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I don't know the story about Ed Parker breaking his foot.

Mike Tyson broke his hand, I'd wager, because he used a technique he had trained--punching to the side of the head--without gloves. It goes to the "you fight the way you train" issue and hence to the issue of how one should train.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
How in the heck does anybody know what box I inhabit, or how often and how carefully I peep around the edges?

I guess that's all part of that open-mindedness I keep hearing so much about.

Ah, the fantasy that newer technology is better. Faster education is better. More-efficient study is better. The dream of speed and power...

Me n' Giles, we know better. But then, I've been a teacher for over twenty years...

I think it might have something to do with comments that were made in the past. Keep in mind that we are talking about 2 different arts here, each with different goals and different ways to attain them. As for KM being part of the military, and not seeing it on the battlefield--well the same could be said for the U.S. military. They do hand to hand and yet they still are fighting with guns, jets, and tanks!!!

The idea of KM was to teach the guys empty hand skills that could be learned quickly, with little or no practice, and could still be remembered. That was the whole idea. In Kenpo, you're still learning H2H, or Sd skills, but the learning process is done over a longer period of time.

As for faster education---Well, the times have changed. People find new ways to do things every day. I dont think that the teachers in schools and colleges are teaching today the same way they did 10 or 20 yrs ago. Same thing with medicine. Did they have the drugs 20 yrs ago that they do today? Of course not. Does it take time to learn how to do things properly? Sure, but it is not going to take you 20 yrs to learn how to defend yourself.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Did they have the drugs 20 years ago that they have today? Are you kiddin? I also recommend taking a peek at Hogarth's "Gin Lane," pictures. They depict the 1720s--of course, in the good ol' days we didn't let THOSE people into school.

As for teaching--sorry, but as a professional teacher, I can tell you unequivocally that there are some things about teaching that have never changed. Nor should they.

I can also tell you that there has been an increasing demand for "efficiency," (I would call it, "Taylorization") in education--and hey guess what? Surprise, surprise, surprise. It is aimed alomst entirely at the poor, the working class, the lower middle class. At Harvard? Naaaah.

I see that you agreed with me about KM being a restricted, quite possibly valid, system that operates as a subset of kenpo.

Incidentally, what's actually happened is that you've projected a fantasy of what a traditional martial artist thinks on my blank screen. I've attempted every way I can think of to explain that that ain't the case--and yet...well, go project.

So let me recommend a book to you--actually two books, both by Herman Kauz: "A Path To Liberation," and, "T'ai Chi Handbook." Oh wait--Mr. Kauz's first art is judo, and I couldn't possibly be interested in that. Oh...how about Nigel Sutton, "Applied T'ai Chi Ch-uan?" Oh wait...I'm blinded by kenpo. Forgot.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Did they have the drugs 20 years ago that they have today? Are you kiddin? I also recommend taking a peek at Hogarth's "Gin Lane," pictures. They depict the 1720s--of course, in the good ol' days we didn't let THOSE people into school.

As for teaching--sorry, but as a professional teacher, I can tell you unequivocally that there are some things about teaching that have never changed. Nor should they.

I can also tell you that there has been an increasing demand for "efficiency," (I would call it, "Taylorization") in education--and hey guess what? Surprise, surprise, surprise. It is aimed alomst entirely at the poor, the working class, the lower middle class. At Harvard? Naaaah.

I see that you agreed with me about KM being a restricted, quite possibly valid, system that operates as a subset of kenpo.

Incidentally, what's actually happened is that you've projected a fantasy of what a traditional martial artist thinks on my blank screen. I've attempted every way I can think of to explain that that ain't the case--and yet...well, go project.

So let me recommend a book to you--actually two books, both by Herman Kauz: "A Path To Liberation," and, "T'ai Chi Handbook." Oh wait--Mr. Kauz's first art is judo, and I couldn't possibly be interested in that. Oh...how about Nigel Sutton, "Applied T'ai Chi Ch-uan?" Oh wait...I'm blinded by kenpo. Forgot.

 

[MJS]

Just so there is no misunderstanding Rob, I'm not referring to the illegal drugs, I"m talking about the ones that actually help people, not hurt them. Another example. Look at the way they perform a surgery. You can't possibly tell me that the way they would operate on someone today is the same as 20yrs ago???

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Funnily enough, I worked in hospitals twenty years ago extensively. And yes, there have been technological advances. And in many ways, the upshot has been lousier and lousier, more and more impersonal, more and more expensive, more and more restricted, care.

Two examples: the increasing lack of public access to care, because medicine's so expensive that ERs and hospitals are closing everywhere; the fascination with fancy machines, while mothers and kids are left malnourished, and kids don't get vaccinated, because the machines are where the profits are.

And oh yes...while we're building this medical marvel of technology, Americans get fatter and fatter (and it is fat, nothing more subtle) and exercise less and less.

Sorry, but medical care's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's blue beltitis writ large...fancy tech! fancy training! fancy diet! smaller and smaller circles, faster and faster hands!...and meanwhile, their stances suck.

P.S. Apologies for any rudeness, but I am not in a particularly-good Forum mood right now, as I think OFK was quite right about Clyde.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Neither tradition is so bad, nor the latest technology is the best. In kenpo is the same and we must find a point of equilibrum between both in the middle.

Keep traditions that are worthwhile but not tradition for the shake of tradition. If a tradition has no meaning nowadays, just get rid of it, but if it works and its reason to exist has a value, why abandon it?

It's the same with novelties. Not all that is marketed as the best is the best. See around and look at your old video. Unless it was beta, it wasn't the best technology available. Or if you can remember old DOS, it wasn't also the best, Amiga and Apple both had better OS. Now, think of all the wasted time until a new better technology became fashionable.

And again, best and better are seldom an objective thing. What is best for me may not be the best for you in any grounds. So if Robert and I don't practice kenpo just to look for fights, even if they're in a ring, to convince us you have to first understand our position to develop an argument that is of some validity to us.

By the way, only time I saw an israeli security officer in action, it look like some kind of ju-jutsu with many hours of work behind it. FWIW. It was an elbow and wrist lock done in an eye blink.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

i don't know why this question is brought up. I don't know ed parker sr personally.

if prof chow's students don't claim him second to god and if mitose's students don't claim him second to god and if bruce lee's students don't claim him second to god and if kung fu master's students don't claim him second to god and if other GREAT fighter's students don't claim him second to god, we should not say thing like this


ed parker is your GGM and it's OK to have this kind of high RESPECT to your GGM.

if ed parker sr were alive today, you guys would give him a lot of problems. I'm sure other GREAT masters will CHALLENGE ed parker and Oh boy, he will be very busy fighting and NOT teaching any more

 

[KenpoDave]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
i don't know why this question is brought up. I don't know ed parker sr personally.

if prof chow's students don't claim him second to god and if mitose's students don't claim him second to god and if bruce lee's students don't claim him second to god and if kung fu master's students don't claim him second to god and if other GREAT fighter's students don't claim him second to god, we should not say thing like this

Actually, I think most of Bruce's disciples have claimed him god.

:shrug:

 

[rmcrobertson]

mmm, interesting point. And then too, Mr. Mitose seems to have had a certain sway over his students--enough that he could, it seems, get one of them to climb in a window and try to kill two elderly people with a screwdriver.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by KenpoDave
Actually, I think most of Bruce's disciples have claimed him god.

:shrug:

there are 2 *him* meaning

1-If you prefer *him* to Ed parker, i wonder what is wrong with bruce's students. Why claim another GM second to god instead of their own ??? if that is the case, bruce was no good ??

2-if you prefer *him* to Bruce, i guess his students are like AK people who claim their GM second to GOD

if that is the case, i'm not suprised why Bruce died so early. Perhaps, because he was tired of all BS and garbages his students threw at ?????? :soapbox: