SD kicks to the head

[newGuy12]

Hello, All.

I thought you might be interested in yet another example of a kick to the face in self defense. Remember, though, these kicks are not supposed to work in a SD situation, hahaha!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/28/trio-bradenton-try-rob-martial-arts-expert/?news-breaking

 

[exile]

Hello, All.

I thought you might be interested in yet another example of a kick to the face in self defense. Remember, though, these kicks are not supposed to work in a SD situation, hahaha!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/28/trio-bradenton-try-rob-martial-arts-expert/?news-breaking

I don't think it's that they're not supposed to work in a SD situation, nG, so much as that they're risky and likely to be impractical in a close range hand-to-hand situation, given the distances involved. But here a gun was involved (and the guy was taking a big chance, I have to say). It's likely that the group wasn't as close as they would have been had they been trying to jump the guy using just their fists, or close-in weapons like a knife. And clearly, they weren't actually expecting a fight (a thug pointing a gun probably doesn't expect to be attacked, eh?)

The guy was almost certainly good, and he was certainly very lucky, I'd say...

 

[newGuy12]

Yes, indeed, I would agree!

 

[terryl965]

He was differently Lucky, High kicks are great but not recomended for SD types of stituation and yes he must be good as well to do that.

 

[Twin Fist]

One of my instructors once told me, "if you wanna kick someone in the head so bad, kick them in the bladder first, then when they bend over screaming, the heads right THERE where you can kick it nice and easy, without falling on your ***"

 

[theletch1]

One of my instructors once told me, "if you wanna kick someone in the head so bad, kick them in the bladder first, then when they bend over screaming, the heads right THERE where you can kick it nice and easy, without falling on your ***"

That is one VERY wise instructor.:EG:

 

[exile]

One of my instructors once told me, "if you wanna kick someone in the head so bad, kick them in the bladder first, then when they bend over screaming, the heads right THERE where you can kick it nice and easy, without falling on your ***"

:lol:

My feeling is, if you want to train to kick high for SD purposes, fine. But to be realistic about it, you have to take seriously the falling-on-your-*** hazard, and also the fact that you need to be able to create the necessary distance to get the kick in. And both involve a different kind of training environment than people usually seek out.

For balance training in the extreme situations which a head-high kick involves in a streetfight, I think it would necessary to train on irregular, broken, sloping surfaces—the kind of real-world environments you're most likely going to be operating in when kick comes to shove in the big, bad real world. Let's face it, dojang floors are pretty artificial! And my own experiments with even moderately sloping surfaces has made it clear to me that achieving confident balance on them is a very different story from what I encounter in my TKD school. I personally would be very hesitant to throw a high kick—and I'm a pretty decent kicker, I think—if I hadn't practiced that same range of kicks on cracked asphalt driveways, broken pavement... the lot. And—in the same vein—on wet surfaces, gravelly surfaces (always a killer), soft ground... all the places where you can realistically expect to be finding yourself when things start going sideways. And let's not forget the clothing aspect—you better be training in the relatively tight jeans most of us have gotten used to wearing whenever we're not at work (or, in the academic world, when we are at work as well ), in unsuitable footwear, etc. etc.

For distance-creation... practice in a deserted school classroom with a lot of desks, or your rec room after you've moved a bunch of tables, chairs and other hazards into it. Yes, interior spaces are more likely to have at least even floor levels; but they're also much more likely to be filled with junk of various kinds. To get enough distance to place a high kick, you need to add a foot or two to the in-your-face fighting range where you're likely to be confronted in a bar, club, lobby/elevator/etc. But you need to be able to do that in spite of the presence of furniture, bars, fixed counters... the works.

What I'm getting at is just this: the foregoing seems to me to be a reasonable, realistic picture of the training requirements you need to face up to if you want to be able to create high-kicking distances in any given real-world space, and administer that killer kick in stable balance. It's not simply a matter of practicing in your dojang in ideal empty-space/flat-floor conditions. I think this is a big reason why high SD kicks are so risky: they have a lot of built-in hazards that probably very few people consistently train for...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hello, All.

I thought you might be interested in yet another example of a kick to the face in self defense. Remember, though, these kicks are not supposed to work in a SD situation, hahaha!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/28/trio-bradenton-try-rob-martial-arts-expert/?news-breaking

look for the girl with the broken smile...

 

[theletch1]

Bob, that's an excellent post. My wife and I will regularly work aikido in our yard. There's a slight slope in two directions and (since the moles have had there way recently) lots of very uneven spots and the occasional solid looking spot that will give when you step. This training has increased our efficiency on level terrain to an extent that I wouldn't have believed had I not done it myself. Training in as many "real world" situations as possible is not just a good training habit, it's a necessity if you intend to train for self defense and have that defense be effective.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ti Kwan Leep. Approach me that you might see

 

[newGuy12]

Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ti Kwan Leep. Approach me that you might see

In this case, it might be Edie Gruberman (female). And, yes, the "boot to the head" worked!

 

[Tito]

I have to tell our Instructor about this tonight, I have a class at 6:30. My school is in Bradenton, about 10 minutes away from that part of Cortez road. (I wonder if she goes to my school?)

Anyways, it's good to see TKD is viable as self defense, despite what a lot of bashers say.

 

[YoungMan]

Anyone who thinks Tae Kwon Do is ineffective for self defense seriously underestimates it.

 

[terryl965]

Anyone who thinks Tae Kwon Do is ineffective for self defense seriously underestimates it.

That is if they do real TKD, if they only train for sport well that is another decussion.

 

[theletch1]

That is if they do real TKD, if they only train for sport well that is another decussion.

That goes for ANY art, Terry. Many people train for many reasons and not all of them are for SD. I think that those that train in an art for SD view each technique and scenario a little different than those that train for sport or for fitness. I've seen this in my old kempo school as well as my current NGA school.

 

[terryl965]

That goes for ANY art, Terry. Many people train for many reasons and not all of them are for SD. I think that those that train in an art for SD view each technique and scenario a little different than those that train for sport or for fitness. I've seen this in my old kempo school as well as my current NGA school.

I would agree but the OP said that TKD in general was effective and I was pointing out that it was if you train that way. Remember in TKD some school does not teach any SD at all so there way of kicking for point would be worthless on the street. But I do agree with your above statement it goes for all Arts.

 

[MJS]

I don't think it's that they're not supposed to work in a SD situation, nG, so much as that they're risky and likely to be impractical in a close range hand-to-hand situation, given the distances involved. But here a gun was involved (and the guy was taking a big chance, I have to say). It's likely that the group wasn't as close as they would have been had they been trying to jump the guy using just their fists, or close-in weapons like a knife. And clearly, they weren't actually expecting a fight (a thug pointing a gun probably doesn't expect to be attacked, eh?)

The guy was almost certainly good, and he was certainly very lucky, I'd say...

My thoughts exactly. I'm glad things worked out well. But, seeing that there was a gun, I don't know if the options he chose were necessarily the best ones. For myself, I'd want to gain control of the weapon hand/arm first. Did it work? Yup. Was it the best option? IMO, no.

 

[exile]

My wife and I will regularly work aikido in our yard. There's a slight slope in two directions and (since the moles have had there way recently)

They are persistent little buggers, and do mess up the lawn, but I can't help being fond of them... reading enough Redwall novels to your kid will do that to you, so be warned! :wink1:

lots of very uneven spots and the occasional solid looking spot that will give when you step. This training has increased our efficiency on level terrain to an extent that I wouldn't have believed had I not done it myself.

Yes, thricefold.

Training in as many "real world" situations as possible is not just a good training habit, it's a necessity if you intend to train for self defense and have that defense be effective.

That goes for ANY art, Terry. Many people train for many reasons and not all of them are for SD. I think that those that train in an art for SD view each technique and scenario a little different than those that train for sport or for fitness. I've seen this in my old kempo school as well as my current NGA school.

I would agree but the OP said that TKD in general was effective and I was pointing out that it was if you train that way. Remember in TKD some school does not teach any SD at all so there way of kicking for point would be worthless on the street. But I do agree with your above statement it goes for all Arts.

I see three main dojang orientations out there:

• Heavily into sport. sparring; hyungs trained for competition; emphasis on athletic virtuosity.
  
• Heavily into SD; emphasis on defensive applications; much greater use of knee and elbow strikes, controlling moves, attacks on 'forbidden' targets (eyes, throat, face, groin) and limb damage.
  
• Vague sparring, vague SD, nothing really too much one way or the other; the subtext is, this is good for you (and your kids! $$$$) to do; just go through the motions on schedule and collect your belt every four to six months.

Of all of these, my guess is that the last category has by far the largest population.

Most people don't really fancy themselves as WTF-rules competitors, and with good reasons. But it's also true that most people can't quite bring themselves to face the prospect of having to fight for their lives, using their hands and feet. You can only do what you train for; that's become something of a cliché in our business, but it's become so for a very good reason! Before you can accept the kind of hard noncompliant scenario training that effective SD requires, you have to actually, sincerely accept the real-world possibility that you may find yourself in an empty parking garage with only your TKD skills to get you home in one piece. That's something most people just cannot do... and that goes quadruple so far as their kids are concerned.

That's why the last category of dojang is probably the most well-attended. So it's not just a question of whether TKD is/can be an effective MA—the problem isn't with the MA, it's with the intentions and attitude of the student whether they really, in their heart of hearts, want to train it for survival, with all the baggage that goes along with that attitude. Most folks don't, I don't think.

 

[IcemanSK]

I think it's a really bad idea for us to "armchair quarterback" this & this guy's choice of techniques in the situation he faced on that night. For him, it's what came to mind & it happened to work in his favor. Anymore than a run vs. a pass that got over the goal line "worked."

Most of us as TKDoan don't reccomend head kicks on the street. We would certainly not use this guy's actions as a "if X happens, do Y" teaching opportunity. In fact, I'd hope we all teach the concepts behind techniques rather than "if X, then Y" scenarios.

All we can really say is, "glad it worked out for him." He was faced with a situation where he had to either use his training or possibly get hurt & he walked away unhurt. Let's hope that if we are ever in that situation, we can do the same.

 

[newGuy12]

Yes! And, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!