Do maiming and killing only work in SD?

[sgtmac_46]

maiming or killing isn't always necessary. take a look at the police force. they do a good job to restrain people without maiming them.

a good self defense class should show you how to control, what places can provide extreme painful discomfort without permanent damage, restrict the motion of an attacker, AND how to be able to walk or run away from the situation safely either before during or after using some self-defense skills. I always hate when some one says they're doing self defense when they apply a wrist lock and stop because they don't know what to do next...

also taking a look at the situation you're in, requires different levels of aggression and response. For example, if a bully were trying to pick on you, you shouldn't break his arms, that's too extreme, on the other hand, if one looks juiced up on some kind of mind altering drugs, foaming at the mouth and rushing at you, probably you will want to apply something different than a wrist lock or verbal de-escalation techniques...

Also don't take self-defense as one should do X in Y situation, there's too many variables, but the more you practice different principles and understand when and how to apply them, you'll be more successful to apply the "right" technique in a spontaneous situation.

As a police officer for 14 years and a defensive tactics and use of force instructor, I should explain a thing or two about how police do that and why we are successful.

1) We use weapons.......we have Tasers, OC Spray, Batons.
2) Most folks don't really want to fight the police, because they know they will go to jail longer, and we also have guns.
3) We usually have superior numbers.

And even with those advantages, sometimes it still comes down to nearly beating a suspect in to submission, when they are truly motivated to fight. There are some tough folks out there, and not all of them are nice.

 

[Shin71]

A friend of mine is a PPCT (Pressure Point and Control Tactics) instructor as a state police officer. He said that the pressure point stuff works better on passive resistors than active resistors but there are a lot of techniques out there that are designed to control someone without permanently injuring them. Army Combatives are different, they'll hurt ya.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There seem to be three ways of approaching these discussions for those without a law enforcement or legal background.

1: Layman with an emotional 'they hurt me/are going to hurt me, so I have every right to use as much force as I deem necessary in order to defend my life.

2: Layman with moral high ground-non violent: All such situations can be avoided and there is a nonviolent resolution to everything. People who end up needing to defend themselves are probably seeking out trouble. Use of excessive force makes you as bad as the assailant.

3: Layman addresses the issue based on common sense. 'we should defend ourselves within reason, but should the bad guy end up on the short end of the stick, well, he did attack me.'

All three of these are frequently countered with LEO or someone with a legal background who either tells people to check out the SD codes in their areas, or picks apart their statements, sometimes smugly, sometimes not, using their knowledge of the legal system.

The problem here is that most people are laymen and the legal system is convoluted and seemingly defies logic to the untrained. The legal system must also address things that the guy who is asking SD questions may never think of. Of those who respond on these threads, most of those fall into category two or three.

Way too late to edit, but that should read category one or two.

The layman who relies on common sense is less likely to engage in these topics because they assume that they already have it figured out.

The above was catgory three. I scrambled my own numbers!

Sorry.

Daniel

 

[derobec]

If I believe myself in danger of serious bodily harm, then any use of force automatically becomes reasonable. I disagree, legally and morally, that defending myself makes me "as bad as the assailant".

Hi,

Well stated.

This is something which I've touched on in the past on this forum.
Sure there is always going to be a legal issue with regards to defending ourselves against unprovoked attacks; there is also:

A serious health issue associated with not doing everything in our power to stop an attacker who is attempting to inflict violence on us.

A serious moral issue with regard to letting such an attacker escape while knowing full well that s/he is going to attack another person who maybe isn't as capable of looking after themselves. If we allow them to escape because we're afraid of defending ourselves in Court then we are as responsible as they are the next time they rape/mug/rob/beat an innocent person.

Just my personal thoughts, with respect,
William

 

[sgtmac_46]

A friend of mine is a PPCT (Pressure Point and Control Tactics) instructor as a state police officer. He said that the pressure point stuff works better on passive resistors than active resistors but there are a lot of techniques out there that are designed to control someone without permanently injuring them. Army Combatives are different, they'll hurt ya.

Your friend pretty well sums it up. Pressure points have very limited use. Quite often it can actually have the opposite effect, turning a passive resister to an active one.

I've found that pressure points only real application is to be struck to cause distraction and set up other techniques.

 

[chinto]

OK folks lets get down to the nitty-gritty! the question is more, how dangerous is the treat? If its of imminent injury or death, then you better get very serious about dealing with this attacker! Let 12 on the jury worry about if it was legal or your Priest, Minister, Rabi, Emom or who ever on the moral end. You have been confronted with a weapon or some one who really wants to hurt you, then yes barring a weapon like a beanbag round, ( if you got a shot gun, and beanbag round, use it or buck shot! but only if its deadly.. I do not buy responding to name calling or what have you with a deadly weapon { hmm Portland Oregon cops shot a 12 year old girl with one under 5 feet away for not being cooperative} ) Other wise you better start hurting them first. so in that situation maiming or killing is provably going to be the way you survive. Nitty-Gritty at that point is SURVIVE! some one not being that kind of serious...no you probably do not need that. Oh on the cops not using that kind of force a lot, usually they have body armor, lots of cops, and they do shoot people and hit them with sticks and tazers and things to stop them... and use shotguns and pistols too.

 

[Gaucho]

I saw the thread title, and I thought: "Why would maiming and killing only work in South Dakota?"

Really.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. I know it is a necro. But still.

Angry people in real life don't get super powers.

They are still effected pretty much the same as everyone else.

So if you can fight better than enraged guy. You can still hold him down against his will if you want to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. I know it is a necro. But still.

Angry people in real life don't get super powers.

They are still effected pretty much the same as everyone else.

So if you can fight better than enraged guy. You can still hold him down against his will if you want to.

Agreed. Though there's a real issue when talking about pressure points for pain compliance. I can make most of them work in standard training drills on most people (only a few will have a high enough tolerance to resist much). But with someone who is fighting back hard (or on chemicals), I would expect them to fail far more often. Structural locks and pins don't suffer that problem.

 

[jobo]

Agreed. Though there's a real issue when talking about pressure points for pain compliance. I can make most of them work in standard training drills on most people (only a few will have a high enough tolerance to resist much). But with someone who is fighting back hard (or on chemicals), I would expect them to fail far more often. Structural locks and pins don't suffer that problem.

agreed, to the extent that a fight ender, be it a knock out or/ choke hold, is always going to be a fight ender no matter the staTe of mind of the guy,

, the issue is that anything less than that will be come increasingly in effective the more enraged the guy is. the normal self preservation- instinct, that will make people back off keep range when they have been hurt doesn't apply, if there prepared to walk through your best kick punch, and sustain any amount of damage in order to get at you, then the only way of stoping them is a fight ender or at least an accumulation of damage that makes continuing physically impossible, just being badly hurt will make them more determind, hold locks and pins only work till you let go

I've seen people climb off the floor after a real beating break a bottle and go back l at it

if there a real big skill/ fitness level between you( in your favour), that shouldn't make a deal of difference, if it's a good bit closer, that level of motivation / psychosis can turn it heavily in their favour, if he is literally fighting to the death and your not, he has a marked advantage

I've had people physically larger than me, start fights and then complain at the end that I was psychotic and trying to kill them, both of which were true, I got a really beating when I was 15 for not full committing to a fight, that was the last time I didnt

 

[Gerry Seymour]

agreed, to the extent that a fight ender, be it a knock out or/ choke hold, is always going to be a fight ender no matter the staTe of mind of the guy,

, the issue is that anything less than that will be come increasingly in effective the more enraged the guy is. the normal self preservation- instinct, that will make people back off keep range when they have been hurt doesn't apply, if there prepared to walk through your best kick punch, and sustain any amount of damage in order to get at you, then the only way of stoping them is a fight ender or at least an accumulation of damage that makes continuing physically impossible, just being badly hurt will make them more determind, hold locks and pins only work till you let go

I've seen people climb off the floor after a real beating break a bottle and go back l at it

if there a real big skill/ fitness level between you( in your favour), that shouldn't make a deal of difference, if it's a good bit closer, that level of motivation / psychosis can turn it heavily in their favour, if he is literally fighting to the death and your not, he has a marked advantage

I've had people physically larger than me, start fights and then complain at the end that I was psychotic and trying to kill them, both of which were true, I got a really beating when I was 15 for not full committing to a fight, that was the last time I didnt

Structural/mechanical movements will still have their full effectiveness, too...up to a point. If a lock doesn't depend upon pain to pin someone, then it will still work if they're enraged. What will change is that they may be willing to dislocate their own shoulder (for instance) to escape the lock - which would render the arm useless and make the next response easier.

 

[Flying Crane]

I saw the thread title, and I thought: "Why would maiming and killing only work in South Dakota?"

Really.

It’s something in the water in South Dakota.

 

[elder999]

 

[CB Jones]

Due to Adrenaline and especially Cortisol, attackers will have a higher pain threshold.

So in dealing with a violent attacker, you dont worry about causing too much damage....you stop the attack. If something breaks....then it just breaks.

 

[jobo]

Structural/mechanical movements will still have their full effectiveness, too...up to a point. If a lock doesn't depend upon pain to pin someone, then it will still work if they're enraged. What will change is that they may be willing to dislocate their own shoulder (for instance) to escape the lock - which would render the arm useless and make the next response easier.

well yes, but what happens when you let go ? unless your going to stay there all night and locks really arnt that easy to get on if they are strangling the life out of you and they don't present an arm and leave it hanging there

 

[drop bear]

Due to Adrenaline and especially Cortisol, attackers will have a higher pain threshold.

So in dealing with a violent attacker, you dont worry about causing too much damage....you stop the attack. If something breaks....then it just breaks.

I have broken a guys arm in a lock once. It is super creepy.

 

[dvcochran]

Agreed. Though there's a real issue when talking about pressure points for pain compliance. I can make most of them work in standard training drills on most people (only a few will have a high enough tolerance to resist much). But with someone who is fighting back hard (or on chemicals), I would expect them to fail far more often. Structural locks and pins don't suffer that problem.

I agree from a position of experience. I have had mixed results with locks as well. I strongly suggest sizing up the assailant/attacker if possible. I remember trying joint lock manipulation on some guys who were simply too strong (for me) to ever get the lock.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well yes, but what happens when you let go ? unless your going to stay there all night and locks really arnt that easy to get on if they are strangling the life out of you and they don't present an arm and leave it hanging there

Yeah, if help isn't likely to show up (and you can't trust them to get their head straight with a 30-second time out), you're in a bit of a bind there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have broken a guys arm in a lock once. It is super creepy.

One bouncer I trained with had someone stand up out of a shoulder lock - just straight up dislocated his own shoulder. Did it rather slowly (or, as he said, it probably just seemed that way at the time), and it really wigged my buddy out. He said for a moment it felt like he was in a bad fight scene.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree from a position of experience. I have had mixed results with locks as well. I strongly suggest sizing up the assailant/attacker if possible. I remember trying joint lock manipulation on some guys who were simply too strong (for me) to ever get the lock.

Yeah, trying to get a specific lock when someone is resisting it well is an issue, especially if they're relatively strong. If you can't break their structure first, you're fighting muscle with muscle.