Sanshou/Sanda

[MaartenSFS]

Hm... I'll further elaborate on that, then..

Qinna = Seize and control. It is composed of joint locks, tearing muscle/flesh, and bone breaking. Though similar to Jujutsu, there is emphasis on training hand strength and hardness and the three mainly targeted joints are wrists, elbows, and shoulders (Though there are techniques to "seize" everything). Especially some Yingzhua (Eagle Claw) techniques are frighteningly painful.

Now, I'm sure that this sounds great... And, in theory, it is... BUT... Try it on a resisting enemy and you will see. 99% of the time it's better to just punch/elbow/kick/Shuai them.

Shuaijiao = Take Down (Or Chinese/Mongolian wrestling). These techniques are ones where your enemy ends up on the ground (In an uncomfortable way). There is little emphasis on groundwork because the idea is that if you are standing and they are not you are safer (And in Chinese culture it is considered dishonourable to fight on the ground). Also, when facing multiple opponents do you really want to be down there? Most of the time one good Shuai is enough to finish off an enemy (Assuming the ground is hard).

That said, we are taught something called Shuaiqin (Shuaijiao+Qinna) in which we take down the enemy and then make them wish that they hadn't fallen by using these terrible Qinna techniques.

Don't even try learning Qinna until your Shuaijiao is very good. Qinna is really not so important and often impractical. Law Enforcement officers may find it usefull (After they have studied kicking, punching, and Shuaijiao). To use any of the techniques requires that your Jibengong (Foundation training) is already at an advanced level.

And when learning Diefa (Falling Way) be sure to ask someone to massage your waist, back, and shoulders or... Just trust me on that one.

And another thing you should learn is Jietui (Kick catching/takedowns). These can be brutal as well. Enjoy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Qinna = Seize and control. It is composed of joint locks, tearing muscle/flesh, and bone breaking.

Yup that would be Qinna. A book I bought about Qinna after my training in it years ago is the only MA book that made me cringe and I started in Jujitsu... many years ago.

These can be brutal as well. Enjoy.

So let me see if I have this straight......

I'm in for a world of hurt :uhyeah:

 

[kidswarrior]

Hm... I'll further elaborate on that, then..

99% of the time it's better to just punch/elbow/kick/Shuai them.

Shuaijiao = Take Down (Or Chinese/Mongolian wrestling). These techniques are ones where your enemy ends up on the ground (In an uncomfortable way). There is little emphasis on groundwork because the idea is that if you are standing and they are not you are safer (And in Chinese culture it is considered dishonourable to fight on the ground). Also, when facing multiple opponents do you really want to be down there? Most of the time one good Shuai is enough to finish off an enemy (Assuming the ground is hard).

That said, we are taught something called Shuaiqin (Shuaijiao+Qinna) in which we take down the enemy and then make them wish that they hadn't fallen by using these terrible Qinna techniques.

Don't even try learning Qinna until your Shuaijiao is very good. Qinna is really not so important and often impractical.

And another thing you should learn is Jietui (Kick catching/takedowns). These can be brutal as well. Enjoy.

Good stuff. Thanks. :ultracool

Goes with my predilection for the answer I give when other MA's say, Every fight goes to the ground. My hope is always that this is true--for my opponent. I'm a stand-up fighter, and that's never going to change, so have held this position for awhile. But I didn't have the theory/terminology behind it, until now. Now definitely want to make sure to beef up my Shuaijiao (not called that in my art, but same concept), along with Jietui (Maarten or XS, can you tell me how to pronounce this?). As you said, the ground is a very hard opponent indeed, especially if it's pavement or concrete.

Quote: Xue Sheng
So let me see if I have this straight......

I'm in for a world of hurt :uhyeah:

Ah, you know you love it. :lol:

 

[MaartenSFS]

Goes with my predilection for the answer I give when other MA's say, Every fight goes to the ground. My hope is always that this is true--for my opponent. I'm a stand-up fighter, and that's never going to change, so have held this position for awhile. But I didn't have the theory/terminology behind it, until now. Now definitely want to make sure to beef up my Shuaijiao (not called that in my art, but same concept), along with Jietui (Maarten or XS, can you tell me how to pronounce this?). As you said, the ground is a very hard opponent indeed, especially if it's pavement or concrete.

As a general rule if you and your opponent go down, the first one that can get up again will win. Many times I've seen people Shuai someone, then do a Qiangunfan (Forward summersault), stand up, and turn around in Sandajia (Fighting stance) ready to pummel the slower opponent. This is done very quick and is quite beautiful if executed correctly.

In Sanda the only thing more important than learning how to Shuai other people is to protect yourself from getting Shuai-ed, which is a skill in itself. Often your opponent will make a stupid mistake when trying to attack you, losing their balance and basically giving you their Zhongxin (centre of gravity), afterwhich you easily Shuai them. "Gongji shi zui hao de fangshou." (Offense is the best defense)

Assuming that you are an English-speaker with no other language abilities it would be bloody impossible to teach you how to pronounce Jietui, especially through text-only communication. Study Chinese and then ask again.

As for pain... If it's comfortable you are not studying an MA. We learn to tolerate pain so that me may inflict more on others. No pain, no gain. =D

 

[MaartenSFS]

I'm going to have to disagree with my earlier statement about the effectiveness of Qinna, as outlined in my new article. It is not: 99% of Qinna is ineffective. It is: 99% of Qinna teachers cannot effectively use Qinna techniques.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm going to have to disagree with my earlier statement about the effectiveness of Qinna, as outlined in my new article. It is not: 99% of Qinna is ineffective. It is: 99% of Qinna teachers cannot effectively use Qinna techniques.

I can agree with this.

One of the sifus I trained Qinna with also said, it was a long time ago so I may have this wrong, kicking and punching were to combat qinna, Shuaijiao was to combat kicking and punching, and qinna was to combat Shuaijiao, or something like that. It, like most Chinese things was circular in application.

 

[kidswarrior]

I can agree with this.

One of the sifus I trained Qinna with also said, it was a long time ago so I may have this wrong, kicking and punching were to combat qinna, Shuaijiao was to combat kicking and punching, and qinna was to combat Shuaijiao, or something like that. It, like most Chinese things was circular in application.

Want to think about this a bit, but at first blush looks right (as in pragmatic for fighting ). Need to think about specific Kung Fu San Soo applications (my only real kung fu experience), and whether this paradigm would work best. Pretty sure it does validate KFSS principles--a very good thing indeed for me, if it proves out, since it provides maybe the most basic principles of combat I've seen.

 

[qi-tah]

Ah, so it must have been Shuaijiao that i was learning in class last year (these groovy call/response sets where you and a partner constantly counterattack each other to try to take each other to the ground... amazing feeling when you get a good bout and you are constantly probing each other and escaping... a little bit like contact Capoeira!) And Shuijiao is a component of Sanda, or Sanshou, whatever you call it? Our teacher calls it Sanshou.
Interested to hear that it's considered bad form in China to fight from the ground... a couple of years ago a fellow student showed me some Dog boxing which was pretty much exclusively ground fighting - reminded me of my little sister when we were kids, in any fight she would immediately go to ground and kick me if i got too close!

I've really enjoyed following this thread, thank-you to all who have made it so informative.

 

[MaartenSFS]

I can agree with this.

One of the sifus I trained Qinna with also said, it was a long time ago so I may have this wrong, kicking and punching were to combat qinna, Shuaijiao was to combat kicking and punching, and qinna was to combat Shuaijiao, or something like that. It, like most Chinese things was circular in application.

Kicking and punching to combat Qinna = yes
Shuaijiao to combat kicking and punching = yes
Qinna to combat Shuaijiao = NO

Infact, Qinna can never be used alone. If you are facing a kickboxer, for example, you should immediately close the distance and try to Shuai them. BUT, if an opportunity presents itself, you should break something along the way. Getting a part of you broken AND being thrown (Especially on a hard surface) should end the fight for you.

Against someone that has Shuaijiao and Qinna ability there is almost nothing that you can do. Run or just give up and die. Remember that they probably know how to punch and/or kick, as well. =D

Check out the article I wrote for a more in-depth analasis of Qinna. You can find the latest update on my new website below my signature. Also other things about China, learning Chinese, et cetera.

 

[MaartenSFS]

And Shuaijiao is a component of Sanda, or Sanshou, whatever you call it? Our teacher calls it Sanshou.

Sanda/Sanshou means free fighting, or applying what you have learned in sparring (Not fighting). It is composed of four aspects: 踢（Ti = kick）, 打（Da = strike）, 摔（Shuai = take down）, and 拿（Na = Qinna）

Interested to hear that it's considered bad form in China to fight from the ground... a couple of years ago a fellow student showed me some Dog boxing which was pretty much exclusively ground fighting - reminded me of my little sister when we were kids, in any fight she would immediately go to ground and kick me if i got too close!

I've really enjoyed following this thread, thank-you to all who have made it so informative.

Though in Chinese culture it was considered uncivilised and in martial theory it was considered dangerous, ground-fighting was not neglected. What you see today does not represent the former grandness of martial arts. Martial has been taken out and all that we are left with is Art.

You're welcome.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kicking and punching to combat Qinna = yes
Shuaijiao to combat kicking and punching = yes
Qinna to combat Shuaijiao = NO

Infact, Qinna can never be used alone. If you are facing a kickboxer, for example, you should immediately close the distance and try to Shuai them. BUT, if an opportunity presents itself, you should break something along the way. Getting a part of you broken AND being thrown (Especially on a hard surface) should end the fight for you.

Against someone that has Shuaijiao and Qinna ability there is almost nothing that you can do. Run or just give up and die. Remember that they probably know how to punch and/or kick, as well. =D

Check out the article I wrote for a more in-depth analasis of Qinna. You can find the latest update on my new website below my signature. Also other things about China, learning Chinese, et cetera.

I believe he was talking in combination as the things you need to know. Not that a Qinna person could defeat a Shuaijiao person. And I could have the order wrong, it was over 10 yars ago