Sanda

[Bee Brian]

I thought it's easier to read this way. For example,

A throw can be divided into the following steps.

- Use kick to set up punch.
- Use punch to set up clinch.
- Use clinch to set up throw.
- Use throw to set up ground game.

This is the way that I write my notes - list major points.

When someone write a long paragraph, it can make me sleepy. I don't like to read people's long paragraph. I don't like people to waste their time to read my long paragraph either.


I'm not the only person doing this.

Cool.

I don't mind it. I just find it funny.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes that type of sprawl I would consider not being on the ground. That sprawl is more like what Kung Fu Wang showed from the perspective that the idea is not to go to the ground when doing the sprawl. Any sprawl that has that main focus of remaining on the feet would be the same in my mindset. Yes, they are done differently but they all have the same end result. Remain on your feet so that you can utilize your mobility.

So to your point. Yes that would be a standing sprawl where the goal is not to go to the ground but to avoid being taken on to the ground so that the one can continue to use their mobility. The low stance that he uses works the same way that I have stated many times. There is an a range in which to your opponent can shoot for your legs. Take him out of that range and it become more difficult shoot for the legs. The lower the stance the more difficult it is to "get under" to grab the legs.

Yeah, I figured our difference of opinion was only about the level of the sprawl.

I don't know enough about BJJ in order say one way or another. If I were going to research, I would go back to see some older BJJ, Judo, or Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and compare it from that.

Take it from someone who has studied all three of those; Bjj has definitely evolved from where it was at in 1990s. Largely because unlike Judo and JJJ, Bjj doesn't have an issue with absorbing new techniques and bringing it into its curriculum.

Take Angela Lee's style for example;

It's far more mobile than what you see out of the old school Gracie stuff, and it uses some interesting takedowns from the clinch in order to set up very dominant positions where she can drop serious punishment and set up submissions. I think she's a very good example of Bjj adapted to modern MMA.

The BJJ fighter did a good job in using his environment to his advantage, when moved backwards, he moved into a corner where he knew he could restrict the Sanda fighter's movement. Right from the start positions himself so that his retreat would be closer to that corner. As a striker I want to avoid corners like that where my movement is restricted. I don't mind putting people in corners, but I can't be in one. I could be over analyzing it, but I think about how I spar and how I'm aware of my environment. Most of the time, I usually make sure that the student isn't going to get hurt by the surround environment, but in a real fight I most definitely make use of the environment.

My mindset about the environment, is that if I don't use the environment against my opponent, then my opponent will use the environment against me. I could be wrong, but I've seen many fighters make sue of the environment so I don't think I'm super smart for thinking that way. I think it's the common way of thinking, just like some people use the cage to restrict movement.

I would definitely agree that the restart put the Sanda fighter at a disadvantage. That said, it is important to note that that Sanda fighter is Xu Xiaodong, the guy who is currently going around China using MMA to beat up traditional Kung Fu stylists. That loss against a Bjj blue belt is actually what made Xu quit Sanda and turn to MMA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would definitely agree that the restart put the Sanda fighter at a disadvantage.

Sometime the fight ends right there and no need to re-start.

 

[Bruce7]

Without the ground game, Sanda develops different set of techniques than MMA does.

Do you think it's more fun to watch Sanda than MMA? Your thought?

Excellent video. The fact he could do all that in gloves. That was impressive.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sometime the fight ends right there and no need to re-start.

I bet his ribs hurt like crazy. first he caught a kick with his ribs then he got slammed in a way that you use your body to crush your opponent as they hit the ground. This is only my second time seeing that in my life. The first time I saw it was during a light sparring session from a take down that had far less impact than that throw, but the drop still broke the ribs. I could only imaging how devestating that throw would have been on the street. Thanks for sharing that video.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I bet his ribs hurt like crazy.

When your opponent uses pull guard or jump guard, you can drop your elbow right on top of his throat. It's very difficult for the judge to prove whether you do that on purpose, or you just lose your balance because your opponent's pull guard. IMO, the pull guard and jump guard cause more unnecessary injury on the mat.

 

[Hanzou]

When your opponent uses pull guard or jump guard, you can drop your elbow right on top of his throat. It's very difficult for the judge to prove whether you do that on purpose, or you just lose your balance because your opponent's pull guard. IMO, the pull guard and jump guard cause more unnecessary injury on the mat.

Becareful attempting that. A properly done guard pull will pull you in at an angle, completely moving you off center from a throat attack. In addition, you risk extending yourself, which can lead you into a quick sweep or submission. It’s safe to assume that if someone is guard pulling you, they are VERY comfortable and well versed in that position.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Becareful attempting that. A properly done guard pull will pull you in at an angle, completely moving you off center from a throat attack. In addition, you risk extending yourself, which can lead you into a quick sweep or submission. It’s safe to assume that if someone is guard pulling you, they are VERY comfortable and well versed in that position.

It depends on where you hand grip is. If my right hand is on your right upper collar, when you use pull guard on me, all I need to do is to bend my elbow and your throat is right under my forearm. I have done this so many times on the mat. It works for me every time.

The guy with the red has the right grip position. If his left hand can control his opponent's right elbow, that will be even better.

 

[Hanzou]

It depends on where you hand grip is. If my right hand is on your right upper collar, when you use pull guard on me, all I need to do is to bend my elbow and your throat is right under my forearm. I have done this so many times on the mat. It works for me every time.

The guy with the red has the right grip position. If his left hand can control his opponent's right elbow, that will be even better.

Uh, that grip isn’t the only way to pull guard. There are multiple variations of the takedown, including a bunch of no-gi variants that don’t require collar grips at all.

 

[Hanzou]

@Kung Fu Wang,

Here's a vid showing some versions of no-gi guard pulling/jumping in the MMA context;

 

[Oily Dragon]

The Chinese have some sort of aversion towards fighting on the ground, but that is to their detriment

I think that statement is inherently racist. I understand why you said it, but I think you need to think harder about this. You're talking about one of the most warlike cultures on Earth.

I'll never understand why people associate fighting on the ground with Brazil, or Japan. The Sumerians were probably gnarly fighters on the ground.

It's almost as if your entire perspective has been made by what's limited to Youtube and VHS.

 

[Hanzou]

I think that statement is inherently racist. I understand why you said it, but I think you need to think harder about this. You're talking about one of the most warlike cultures on Earth.

I'll never understand why people associate fighting on the ground with Brazil, or Japan. The Sumerians were probably gnarly fighters on the ground.

It's almost as if your entire perspective has been made by what's limited to Youtube and VHS.

While I won’t pretend to know what Sumerians did thousands of years ago, it’s interesting to note that of all the various Kung Fu systems developed, we only know of one that dealt with fighting on the ground, and it was named for dogs.

To be fair to the Chinese, the Japanese didn’t seem too keen on ground fighting either, despite Bjj having roots in a Japanese MA. It appears that the only reason Kano had newaza in Kodokan Judo was because a ground fighting master bested some of his best Judoka. Kano himself also seemed to have an aversion to ground grappling, greatly preferring the throwing aspect.

With that said, I’ll just say that the only reason you’re seeing ground fighting gain so much prevalence in modern martial arts is because its effectiveness. That makes its exclusion from Sanda very puzzling, but I do understand that the Chinese want their variety of kickboxing to have its own unique flavor.

 

[Oily Dragon]

While I won’t pretend to know what Sumerians did thousands of years ago, it’s interesting to note that of all the various Kung Fu systems developed, we only know of one that dealt with fighting on the ground, and it was named for dogs.

To be fair to the Chinese, the Japanese didn’t seem too keen on ground fighting either, despite Bjj having roots in a Japanese MA. It appears that the only reason Kano had newaza in Kodokan Judo was because a ground fighting master bested some of his best Judoka. Kano himself also seemed to have an aversion to ground grappling, greatly preferring the throwing aspect.

With that said, I’ll just say that the only reason you’re seeing ground fighting gain so much prevalence in modern martial arts is because its effectiveness. That makes its exclusion from Sanda very puzzling, but I do understand that the Chinese want their variety of kickboxing to have its own unique flavor.

I didn't mean to seem rude so I apologize for my tone if it was a bit aggressive.

This is a complex discussion actually and a bit off topic, but there are actually quite a lot of different styles and methodologies in Chinese martial arts and wushu that include ground technique, Dog boxing being just one facet. For the most part they are no longer extant, but digging deep enough you can find references to them (if not nice, easy to reference pictures). Sadly, a lot of this was just lost in the Cultural Revolution (see Shaolin Chin Na Fa: Art of Seizing and Grappling. Instructor's Manual for Police Academy of Zhejiang Province (Shanghai, 1936) for interested grappling positions based on common arrest techniques (knee on belly etc)).

China (Han as well as Manchuria and Mongolia) have wrestling traditions that are several thousand years old, so the odds of never having developed techniques for both ground grappling and recovery are basically nil. The reasons for the decline of ground fighting in both China and Japan have a couple of common drivers: the development of firearms (which happened in China first and then Japan) heavily depressed focus on ground fighting.

Not to mention Chinese-Japanese racism. As Jujutsu and Judo evolved in Japan, there was a clear focus on ensuring Chinese arts didn't look anything like Japanese arts, and Okinawan and Japanese arts flatly changed their names to disassociate from China. Even though you can link Jujutsu to Chinese arts if you go back far enough, because most Japanese warfare developed in lockstep with Chinese warfare.

Ultimately, the reason there is no "ground game" in Sanda is because modern Sanda is a point based sport developed from much older arts (Jiao Li, Shuai Jiao) that focused more on essential elements of fighting such as getting back on your feet. But anybody who's trained against someone proficient in grappling kung fu (Tiger, Dragon, Liuhebafa, Do) knows these people can fight just fine on the ground.

I've nothing against BJJ at all but I just find the idea that hand to hand grappling reached its peak as late as the 20th century is probably just an illusion. We see Brazil and Japan as the biggest source of these now, because we've been living through the time, and they just happen to be very popular and associated with these countries. Yet ancient history shows every major civilization (Egypt, Rome, China) fully developed boxing and grappling arts a long time ago. What's likely is that much of the ground grappling in various styles is now lost, because they were not emphasized. You can see the same thing with weapons work...some styles contain dozens and dozens of weapon sets, but good luck finding anyone alive who knows them all (not too useful a skill in 2020, really, but then again, ground fighting is only marginally more useful).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Since we are talking about Sanda. Here is a clip from one of my student's Sanda school class training. You can tell there are some difference between a Sanda school training and a TMA school training. Some major difference are if you train Sanda, you

- will train a lot of partner drills.
- may not have time to train your form.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

While I won’t pretend to know what Sumerians did thousands of years ago, it’s interesting to note that of all the various Kung Fu systems developed, we only know of one that dealt with fighting on the ground, and it was named for dogs.

To be fair to the Chinese, the Japanese didn’t seem too keen on ground fighting either, despite Bjj having roots in a Japanese MA. It appears that the only reason Kano had newaza in Kodokan Judo was because a ground fighting master bested some of his best Judoka. Kano himself also seemed to have an aversion to ground grappling, greatly preferring the throwing aspect.

With that said, I’ll just say that the only reason you’re seeing ground fighting gain so much prevalence in modern martial arts is because its effectiveness. That makes its exclusion from Sanda very puzzling, but I do understand that the Chinese want their variety of kickboxing to have its own unique flavor.

If there was a ground fighting master that bested some of his best Judoka, wouldn't that mean that there are (or were) other effective groundfighting arts in japan?

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't mean to seem rude so I apologize for my tone if it was a bit aggressive.

No offense taken. I understand where you're coming from, and my comment could definitely be seen as racist. Not my intention at all.

But anybody who's trained against someone proficient in grappling kung fu (Tiger, Dragon, Liuhebafa, Do) knows these people can fight just fine on the ground.

That really hasn't been demonstrated by modern exponents of Kung Fu.

I've nothing against BJJ at all but I just find the idea that hand to hand grappling reached its peak as late as the 20th century is probably just an illusion. We see Brazil and Japan as the biggest source of these now, because we've been living through the time, and they just happen to be very popular and associated with these countries. Yet ancient history shows every major civilization (Egypt, Rome, China) fully developed boxing and grappling arts a long time ago. What's likely is that much of the ground grappling in various styles is now lost, because they were not emphasized. You can see the same thing with weapons work...some styles contain dozens and dozens of weapon sets, but good luck finding anyone alive who knows them all (not too useful a skill in 2020, really, but then again, ground fighting is only marginally more useful).

Well what's wrong with the idea that it's reached its peak recently? Grappling now is at a level that it has never been, and the competitive grapplers now are vastly superior to grapplers from just a decade ago. It's pretty hard to argue against the fact that Bjj ground fighting philosophy has fundamentally changed the martial arts landscape.

If there was a ground fighting master that bested some of his best Judoka, wouldn't that mean that there are (or were) other effective groundfighting arts in japan?

"Effective" based on 19th century Judo standards, yes. Basically, this grappler studied western wrestling and combined it with some classical jujutsu, just like Kano did, and developed his own style. His methodology was that he would fight off the ground in order to avoid the throws from Judo. It wasn't some ancient Koryu, just a talented martial artist attempting to beat Kano at his own game.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

"Effective" based on 19th century Judo standards, yes. Basically, this grappler studied western wrestling and combined it with some classical jujutsu, just like Kano did, and developed his own style. His methodology was that he would fight off the ground in order to avoid the throws from Judo. It wasn't some ancient Koryu, just a talented martial artist attempting to beat Kano at his own game.

What's the name of this grappler? I haven't heard this story before and would be curious to see how he did it.

I also think calling anything from the past effective based on modern BJJ is a bit disingenuous based on the amount of globalization and therefore improvement/innovation compared to before. I'd be curious at how his style would work against BJJ from the early 90s.

 

[Hanzou]

What's the name of this grappler? I haven't heard this story before and would be curious to see how he did it.

Mataemon Tanabe - Wikipedia

I also think calling anything from the past effective based on modern BJJ is a bit disingenuous based on the amount of globalization and therefore improvement/innovation compared to before. I'd be curious at how his style would work against BJJ from the early 90s.

Unfortunately Fusen-Ryu is all but extinct now. Some of its techniques were supposedly transplanted into Judo, and Tanabe himself popularized Judo newaza. His individual style? Lost to history.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My clip just to prove that without cross training boxing, MT, Judo, wrestling, TKD, by using CMA such as long fist, preying mantis, SC, a Sanda person can be developed. My clip can prove that Sanda is 100% CMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While I won’t pretend to know what Sumerians did thousands of years ago, it’s interesting to note that of all the various Kung Fu systems developed, we only know of one that dealt with fighting on the ground, and it was named for dogs.

To be fair to the Chinese, the Japanese didn’t seem too keen on ground fighting either, despite Bjj having roots in a Japanese MA. It appears that the only reason Kano had newaza in Kodokan Judo was because a ground fighting master bested some of his best Judoka. Kano himself also seemed to have an aversion to ground grappling, greatly preferring the throwing aspect.

With that said, I’ll just say that the only reason you’re seeing ground fighting gain so much prevalence in modern martial arts is because its effectiveness. That makes its exclusion from Sanda very puzzling, but I do understand that the Chinese want their variety of kickboxing to have its own unique flavor.

I don't know what is so difficult to understand. If you are fighting 1 vs 2. What are you going to do? Use your ground game and talk about how effective BJJ is? You'll lose, It always plays out the same way. 1 vs 1 , you can afford to use a ground game. 1 vs 2. Ground game will result in a loss. If you look at the 5 vs 5 MMA fights. It always plays out this way. As you see in the video below. This is what happens to a ground game when you have to fight more than 1 person.

Martial arts that have a considerable amount of striking in it are more focused on the possibility of multiple attackers. Even a 2 vs 2 scenario makes a ground game very risky. 1 vs 1 can turn into a quick loss if other join in. The green shirt was fortunate that the guy he was beating up didn't have a friend around. Look how easy it is to interfere.

Here's another

This is why people say being on the ground is not good. Gracies have even stated so themselves.

If my brother is with me, and you and I get into a fight, You use BJJ on me, what do you think my brother is going to do while your hands are busy trying to control me. Lets add weapons to the scenario. I don't have a weapon but my brother has a knife. Yeah you are going to get stuck and it won't take a lot of effort for my brother to stab you. Where are you going to run? How are you going to defend against 2 people when you are on the ground?

If I have someone with me, then it doesn't matter if I have ground game or not. Not sure why this is so difficult. To understand. Listen to what they say 3:50

While fighting multiple attackers at once is a big risk. It's a definitely 98% certainty you'll lose if you go to the ground and think that you can fight multiple attackers while on the ground and still win. The other 2% depends on if you are able to get up quickly or at all after going to the ground.