San Ti Shi

[DaPoets]

Xue Sheng,
Please clarify "half the benefit". I ask this because do you mean that only focusing mainly on the health aspect of xing-yi that I'm not getting the full health benifits unless I also explore the combat art side as well, or are you saying that even though I'm getting the health benifits of xing-yi, I'm only experiencing half of what xing-yi has to offer as I'm missing the combat aspect. I believe are are speaking of the latter but I just wanted to clarify.

Thanks as always!

DaPoets

I am not disputing this and in fact I agree but Xingyiquan was a Chinese Military style and is considered an old Chinese Military martial art which was most certainly for fighting.

I am of the opinion that it you seperate the 2 or emphasize one over the other you only get half the picture and half the benefit.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,
Please clarify "half the benefit". I ask this because do you mean that only focusing mainly on the health aspect of xing-yi that I'm not getting the full health benifits unless I also explore the combat art side as well, or are you saying that even though I'm getting the health benifits of xing-yi, I'm only experiencing half of what xing-yi has to offer as I'm missing the combat aspect. I believe are are speaking of the latter but I just wanted to clarify.

Thanks as always!

DaPoets

What I am saying is that to get the full health benefit of Xingyiquan you need to train the combat side as well, conversely if you do not train the health side of Xingyiquan you will not gain the full combat side. I feel the same way about Taijiquan.

You can gain health benefits form training only the health side in either style, just not the full benefit. Or at least this is what I have been told and read and this is of course IMO.

It is not necessary to look to the combat side of any of these however it is just that IMO you will not gain the full benefit without doing so. This is not saying you will not gain any benefit just not all you could. Don’t forget that training the combat side is also learning how to direct qi and unify the body.

And if one is truly adverse to the combat of things I imagine (speaking purely based on opinion) it could detrimental to the psychological side of things

And just as a note:
To Yang Chengfu's 10 Essences they are rather important to Yang Taiji and I am not saying you could not apply them to Xingyiquan but I would not worry about them when talking Xingyiquan. Xingyiquan has its own approach and its own things to focus on

 

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

I asked you how you trained sinking the Chi to the Dantien and you gave a non answer. I gave you a specific answer as to how we did it in Traditional Yang and you implied that you did the same in TTC. That is patently not the case as can be shown by the photographs you produced in another post. Lest I be accused of opinionating, let me explain. The excessive forward lean, as for instance in Brush Knee, negates essence 1. The excessive forward lean raises the shoulders and therefore negates essence 2 and 3. The squaring of the hips and the sticking out of the backside negates essence 4. I agree with Xue Sheng that these aspects have nothing to do with Hsing-I but it was you who told us you had vast experience of Sinking the Chi. I merely asked how you trained that aspect. I will ask again. How do you train Sinking the Chi to the Dantien? And please don't try and imply that your TTCS experience is so much superior to mine. It is clear from your posts that you have little experience outwith that of the TTCS.

 

[mograph]

If I may ...

DaPoets, since we know that training santi shi and (even) mentioning qi is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy ...

... are you saying that your training is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy?

... or are you saying that training santi shi and the sinking of the Qi to the dantien is reserved for indoor students such as yourself?

 

[DaPoets]

Mentioning qi is not contrary to TTCS as it is openly spoken about and explained in classes that I attend. It probably isn't spoken of much as many instructors may not fully be aware of the matter. Like any organization or training style, you have to find the instructor that is right for you and your level and abilities.
Qi flows easily when there is emptiness, lack of tension, correctly stacked skeletal structure, intension and spirit. This is what TTCS teaches from my experience. Now is there more than 1 version of Tai Chi... yes... Is anyone one version "greater" than another, perhaps. This is what has been working for me for many years now.

I don't recall which pictures were refered to but there are many different levels and understanding of taijiquan in TTCS and there is very bad tai chi out there and there is spectacular tai chi out there.

I hope this clears things up.

If I may ...

DaPoets, since we know that training santi shi and (even) mentioning qi is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy ...

... are you saying that your training is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy?

... or are you saying that training santi shi and the sinking of the Qi to the dantien is reserved for indoor students such as yourself?

 

[DaPoets]

DaPoets,

How do you train Sinking the Chi to the Dantien? /quote]

answer= through and enlightened teacher. You can read all the books on the subject but to do this correctly you need a teacher to show you the way.

 

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

Thank you, I already know that. I also know how to sink Chi to the Dantien. I am asking you what methodology you use. Simple question?

Very best wishes

 

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

The photographs I referred to were posted by you on the thread Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang. Presumably you posted them as good examples of Taoist Tai Chi (why would anyone post bad examples of their art!!). But never mind here is perfect example of what I mean. brush knee

Very best wishes

 

[DaPoets]

I think you are looking for a structured 1 - 10 step process. From years of practice I just will it and it happens when I'm in a relaxed state. I practice this while waiting in line, in the elevator, at a stop light, on the phone etc... When my body is relaxed, mind at ease, the spirt and qi go where asked. I do this during my liuhebafa & taijiquan practice and even complete the orbit through different tongue connections. Sinking qi to the lower dan tian is a good start of the process and you then get to a point where you are "full" and the circulation (orbit) can happen or the blockages worked on if they exist. My blockages are nearly all gone, thus my desire to cultivate shen which is the next stage for me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Like I said nothing wrong with Yang Chengfu's 10 essences but this is Xingyiquan not Yang Taijiquan - Follow the link and select "Pounding" and you will get a lot of info that is more applicable to Xingyiquan than the 10 essences

Some key elements to Xingyiquan are the Six Harmonies:

The hands harmonize with the feet,
The shoulders harmonize with the hips,
The elbows harmonize with the knees,
The heart harmonizes with the intent,
The intent harmonizes with the qi,
The qi harmonizes with the power.
In order for your jing to be effective and powerful, these principles must be followed, regardless of the style you practice.

- Dai Long Bang, 1750 A.D.

And 7 key points

Sink the waist - the coccyx is curled under. Imagine the tailbone is trying to touch the nose.

Relax the shoulders - the shoulders become rounded, getting "behind" the arms.

Depress the chest - the chest becomes hollow and sunken in conjunction with the shoulders rounding.

Press - the tongue is gently touching the roof of the mouth while the hands reach and press outwards.

Lift - the anus is lifted and contracted.

Moving across and moving smoothly must be understood - "moving across" is to rise and "moving smoothly" is to lower.

Rising, drilling, falling and overturning must be clearly separated - when one raises the arms in Xingyi, this is drilling. When the arms fall, this they must overturn.

From Konghua Xingyiquan

 

[Xue Sheng]

DePoets

I just realized that I never asked you what you learned in the 10 days of Xingyiquan

Wuxing (5 elements) or Animal forms or something else?

 

[Xue Sheng]

More about Santi

Front foot is turned about 15 degrees inward and the rear foot is at 45 degrees outward

The weight distribution is generally said to be (back leg/front Leg) 60/40 or 70/30

There are also high, middle and low level stances

High level means your feet are about 2 of your foot lengths apart
Middle level means your feet are about 2.5 of your foot lengths apart
Low level means your feet are about 3 of your foot lengths apart

The higher being more for cultivation and health the lower being more for combat.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

It was DaPoets who raised the question of sinking the Chi with this quote "sinking Qi to the Dantian is something I have been working on for many years now." I was merely asking him how he did it. From his last reply, clearly he has no idea!!!:erg:

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

It was DaPoets who raised the question of sinking the Chi with this quote "sinking Qi to the Dantian is something I have been working on for many years now." I was merely asking him how he did it. From his last reply, clearly he has no idea!!!:erg:

Very best wishes

My apologies if I gave the impression that I was aiming this at you or your post, I was not, I should have been more clear and not so over zealous

I was just pointing out to DePoets what Xingyiquan is and what it isn't.

However after reading all of this stuff I am thinking about a comparison between Yang Chengfu's 10 essences and Xingyiquan's written guides (if you will)

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

There is no seperation of health and martial.

If you practice correctly health will result.
If you practice correctly you will be able to protect yourself.

When you seperate the oneness of Hsing Yi it becomes diluted it is the same for all arts.

If you look closely at the Wu hsing form you will find that they do relate to the channels. If you do practice with martial intent your Qi will flow thru the arm channels and leg channels which also rises the Shen.

All of this starts at San Ti. Because with correct San Ti is correct movement correct movement will result in correct intent and technique which results in protecting yourself and good health.

Xue gave a lot of useful info for free too!!:highfive:

 

[East Winds]

JadecloudAlchemist.

Right on the money!!!

Very best wishes

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

No offence taken. I realised that I had highjacked the thread somewhat, but when you get a chance to ask a TTCS person to give a specific reply to a specific question, that is when you can show the shallowness of their teachings.

My own exposure to Hsing-I is the same as DaPoets. A one week course. However mine was with a true exponent of the art - Peter Ralston!! I did not pursue my studies of the art.

Very best wishes

 

[mograph]

If you do practice with martial intent your Qi will flow thru the arm channels and leg channels which also rises the Shen.

Indeed. I'd add that martial intent is neither anger nor aggression.

We should not fear martial intent in the internal martial arts. Combined with wisdom, calmness and compassion, martial intent and healthful practice can reap great health benefits, such as those described by JadecloudAlchemist.

(Of course, I can't speak for external martial arts, but that would be a different forum.)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Guess what I have been reading this morning

Go here... again

Click Crushing

Under training you will find San Ti Shi Exercise

Under Theory & Principles (also under Crushing)
What makes a complete system - it is talking mainly Bagua but it is applicable

 

[PHElwood]

the emptyflower.com website is very helpful- the description of santi shi here is quite well presented. Thank you, Xue Sheng.