Roundhouse - toes or instep?

[MBuzzy]

Does your school teach roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot, instep, or both?

Why and what do you think are the advantages/disadvantages of the two?

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Both, though more commonly instep. Never with the toes themselves, of course.

Instep is the rule, unless you're breaking a board or trying to hit a very specific target.

 

[Yossarian]

We do both, mainly instep though. We sometimes use the shin too. I would say the instep is better suited to point sparring, it gives you a bit extra reach and theres less chance of hurting a toe. Ball of the foot is great for hitting hard targets, less chance of damaging the small bones of the instep.

 

[Kacey]

Does your school teach roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot, instep, or both?

Why and what do you think are the advantages/disadvantages of the two?

Both. The tool used depends on the target; a flat tool (instep) should be used on a round target (e.g. temple), while a round tool (ball of foot) should be used on a flat target (e.g. abdomen) - realizing that "flat" and "round" are relative terms when talking about body parts.

Also, the ball of foot provides a different angle, and can often be used to get past the opponent's guard (going between the forearms to the torso, for example), while the instep provides extra distance, and, for many people, is easier to use at higher sections.

 

[thardey]

Both. The tool used depends on the target; a flat tool (instep) should be used on a round target (e.g. temple), while a round tool (ball of foot) should be used on a flat target (e.g. abdomen) - realizing that "flat" and "round" are relative terms when talking about body parts.

Also, the ball of foot provides a different angle, and can often be used to get past the opponent's guard (going between the forearms to the torso, for example), while the instep provides extra distance, and, for many people, is easier to use at higher sections.

Word for word what we teach. The only thing I could add is that we usually reserve the ball of the foot for a front leg-round kick.

 

[terryl965]

Both. The tool used depends on the target; a flat tool (instep) should be used on a round target (e.g. temple), while a round tool (ball of foot) should be used on a flat target (e.g. abdomen) - realizing that "flat" and "round" are relative terms when talking about body parts.

Also, the ball of foot provides a different angle, and can often be used to get past the opponent's guard (going between the forearms to the torso, for example), while the instep provides extra distance, and, for many people, is easier to use at higher sections.

Exactly what I would have said just sloppier, Kacey always says the right things.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Does your school teach roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot, instep, or both?

Why and what do you think are the advantages/disadvantages of the two?

This is a circular versus liniar thing and there are perfectly good reasons to choose one over the other based on the target and effect desired; so, both.
Sean

 

[Butch]

I teach both and it depends on your intent. If it is to stun your opponent we use the instep, if it is intented to do damage then it is ball of foot.

 

[tellner]

If you really want to do damage use the shin or wear hard shoes

 

[Chizikunbo]

Does your school teach roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot, instep, or both?

Why and what do you think are the advantages/disadvantages of the two?

The ball of the foot. The instep is not conditioned to deliver any good amount of impact. The ankle can actually be damaged fairly easily and rather permanently by exerting too much pressure on the instep during the impact of the kick. On the other hand the ball of the foot is already conditioned for impact (we walk on it every day)....

fwiw,
--josh

 

[Sensei Tom O'Brien]

Use the shin. Kick em' in the head with your shin (Cro Cop style) but first kick em' in the family jewel's with the ball of your foot. The ball of the foot can go around the leg if it gets in the way and penetrate.
Thanks,
Sensei Tom

 

[MBuzzy]

Both. The tool used depends on the target; a flat tool (instep) should be used on a round target (e.g. temple), while a round tool (ball of foot) should be used on a flat target (e.g. abdomen) - realizing that "flat" and "round" are relative terms when talking about body parts.

Also, the ball of foot provides a different angle, and can often be used to get past the opponent's guard (going between the forearms to the torso, for example), while the instep provides extra distance, and, for many people, is easier to use at higher sections.

I agree 100% - so why is it that a lot of schools basically teach one or the other. Or at least focus on one or the other rather than extolling the uses and virtues of each?

 

[exile]

I agree 100% - so why is it that a lot of schools basically teach one or the other. Or at least focus on one or the other rather than extolling the uses and virtues of each?

My impression is that

• the instep is used as a `training' impact surface, because less internal muscle manipulation is necessary: to get the ball of the foot to impact the target, you have to do a small forward rotation of the foot at the ankle, which actually make the kicking motion a bit more complex than what you have to do get a clean impact with the instep;

• rotating the foot forward to bring the ball of the foot into play requires much greater care so far as protecting the toes are concerned than the en pointe position of the foot in the instep-strike version;

• relatively few schools will have you learn a roundhouse-kick board break, which pretty much demands a ball-of-foot impact, compared to the number that teach you Olympic style point-scoring using the roundhouse, where a number of different factors already alluded to make the instep version optimal.

Put'em together and the instep version winds up being the default in most places, I suspect....

 

[Kacey]

I agree 100% - so why is it that a lot of schools basically teach one or the other. Or at least focus on one or the other rather than extolling the uses and virtues of each?

Well, first, I'll point out that I'm in TKD, not TSD, so I don't know if that makse a difference or not...

The way I taught, and teach my own students, is to do the ball of foot turning/roundhouse kick first; being the more difficult kick, once it's learned, the instep kick is much easier to learn - but if the instep variant is learned first, many people have difficulty learning the ball of foot variant. I do this with many kicks that have variations - teach the more difficult version first, then the easier ones.

This may be why it doesn't appear to be taught both ways everywhere; our syllabus indicates teaching turning kick with the ball of foot at yellow belt (8th gup), while instep is not introduced until blue belt (4th gup), because it is used primarily for high section kicks (head), which are harder to do, even though the foot position is easier to get correct.

My impression is that

• the instep is used as a `training' impact surface, because less internal muscle manipulation is necessary: to get the ball of the foot to impact the target, you have to do a small forward rotation of the foot at the ankle, which actually make the kicking motion a bit more complex than what you have to do get a clean impact with the instep;

See above - that's why I teach the ball of foot version first - because it's more difficult. Students who have learned the harder version have an easy time with the less difficult version

• rotating the foot forward to bring the ball of the foot into play requires much greater care so far as protecting the toes are concerned than the en pointe position of the foot in the instep-strike version;

It may be for you - but the first kick we teach is front kick, which also requires that the toes be retracted while the ball of the foot is pointed forward at the target - from there, turning kick foot position (ball of foot with the toes retracted) is not particularly difficult; in fact, it's easier than front kick.

• relatively few schools will have you learn a roundhouse-kick board break, which pretty much demands a ball-of-foot impact, compared to the number that teach you Olympic style point-scoring using the roundhouse, where a number of different factors already alluded to make the instep version optimal.

We break with turning kick all the time - in fact, it's the required kick for breaking when testing to 6th gup (green belt) - so it's used as a breaking kick pretty early on. I will say, however, that we don't use Olympic sparring rules, and turning kick is a very valid - and very effective - sparring technique.

I've seen people break with the instep - but it's usually people with really high arches that are truly good at it, because it's hard to get a small striking tool with the arch otherwise.

Put'em together and the instep version winds up being the default in most places, I suspect....

Might be the default for you - it isn't in the ITF, from what I've seen.

 

[exile]

My impression—and it's only that—is that most of the WTF-affiliated TKD schools I've had any contact with use the instep version, for some combination of the reasons I've mentioned, with the tournament applicability of the kick heading the list. The competition emphasis of WTF schools makes this a fairly straightforward choice. In my own school, breaking techs emphasize the use of hands; hands are actually more emphasized than leg/foot techniques in any case, so I'm not going by what we do, since it's pretty unrepresentative of most TKD (apart from other Song Moo Kwan schools). But in my contacts with TKDists from schools with other kwan lineages, I seem to have seen instep-surface roundhouses almost exclusively.

I'd expect things to be different in TSD, ITF TKD and any other karate-based MA that played down the martial sport aspect, compared to what happens in WTF TKD. It's yet another case where form reflects function, for the most part. If you want quick, high contact, the instep works a treat; but for hard impact, the ball of the foot, though technically more demanding, is by far the better bet...

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I've seen people break with the instep - but it's usually people with really high arches that are truly good at it, because it's hard to get a small striking tool with the arch otherwise.

Heh, well I break that rule for you, since I'm flat-footed and prefer breaking with my instep on a round kick. I can't pull back my toes very far, so it's easier for me to use the instep. I condition my insteps a lot, so that they don't feel all that much pain, but really, board breaking requires speed and follow-through. We use 1" thick boards in the ITF (that's the ITSDF), but even so, it's a breeze for me to put my instep through a board. I'm gonna try two boards with my signature spinning jump roundhouse next May; I'll tell you how it goes.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Toe, instep, or shin with shoes on. Unfortunately, the ball is more often than not unaccessible. The toe, with boots on, to the liver, ribs, kidney, ITB... it's a sweet thing.

 

[Makalakumu]

I believe that you don't want to limit yourself to one way of doing it. There are lots of times where the various kicks are appropriate then others. The key is how you drill it. You can't just do it willy nilly or you are not going to be able to make it instinctual.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I believe that you don't want to limit yourself to one way of doing it. There are lots of times where the various kicks are appropriate then others. The key is how you drill it. You can't just do it willy nilly or you are not going to be able to make it instinctual.

Too true. We drill each one specifically. If the instructor wants us to do toes, he says so, reminding us of the difference in usage.

The breaking requirement for one of the red belt ranks is a jump round kick with the ball of the foot (I actually managed to pull my toes back enough to break it that way when I had to do it), so especially at that level we drill both.

 

[MBuzzy]

Well, first, I'll point out that I'm in TKD, not TSD, so I don't know if that makse a difference or not...

The way I taught, and teach my own students, is to do the ball of foot turning/roundhouse kick first; being the more difficult kick, once it's learned, the instep kick is much easier to learn - but if the instep variant is learned first, many people have difficulty learning the ball of foot variant. I do this with many kicks that have variations - teach the more difficult version first, then the easier ones.

This may be why it doesn't appear to be taught both ways everywhere; our syllabus indicates teaching turning kick with the ball of foot at yellow belt (8th gup), while instep is not introduced until blue belt (4th gup), because it is used primarily for high section kicks (head), which are harder to do, even though the foot position is easier to get correct.

No idea if the TSD/TKD makes much of a difference, although I'd be curious to know if one style is more apt to teach it different ways.

I learned the instep kick first and now I'm having a difficult time transferring over to the ball of the foot kick. I've found that the instep kick is much faster - seems to me that it would be much more effective in sparring or for weakening the thighs or side defenses. The ball of the foot kick seems more effective for getting through or around defenses for a direct hit.