Is it possible to do breaking with the instep without injury?

[dvcochran]

I have been corrected by a Kyokushin guy regarding the instep to the skull. He explains that the force dissipates, unlike when you hit bone on bone to an elbow. So the foot usually doesn't break. Instep to the skull is perfectly fine in his words..

Having established that, is the reason you don't do instep breaking on wood that the force doesn't dissipate?

Also, how common is it for people to break their toes when failling their ball of their foot roundhouse?

Youtube the Korean National Demo team.

 

[dvcochran]

The situation is defined. "Breaking" is term for a breaking wooden boards.

Okay, let's work with that. Dynamic breaking is commonly done with the top of the foot. Static breaking usually done with the ball of the foot or heel.
Simple enough to understand? However, you mentioned curriculum. If your curriculum spells out a certain type of kick/break, how is there any grey area?

 

[dvcochran]

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Yes there is. Has the prescribed ball of the foot dollyo chagi breaking got to do with tradition and nothing else?

The short answer is no. It has to do with many things.

 

[dvcochran]

OK, that was not my understanding. I have never seen such display or been told that the instep is permissible.

Btw, even though TaeKwonDo was sprung from Shotokan, Shotokan has little to no breaking. My father who is a Shihan in Shotokan considers breaking "Donald Duck" Karate.

Kyokushin-kais however love breaking.

Tons of breaking done by Shotokan.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I . Given that my earliest TKD training was ITF, I suspect it was ball of the foot. But for as long as I can recall being aware that there are variations, I have used them all.

What does ITF have to do with whether it was ball of the foot? KKW taught ball of the foot as well in the 70s, as evident by their first textbook...

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Tons of breaking done by Shotokan.

I wouldn't call it tons of breaking if there is no breaking in my fathers curriculum. He isn't exactly sport based...pretty hard core traditionalist.

 

[Earl Weiss]

ITF Breaking competitions specify the "Tool" to be used. I was at a camp once where the guy broke 5 standard 1 x 12 boards with an instep, but he was a freak of nature. My thought is certain Tools are less likely to be injured than others for power breaks and the Ball of the foot is less likely to be injured than the instep.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Today we worked on full power roundhouse kicks on a firmly padded sensei. Weapon surface was the shin. Having been originally trained using the ball of the foot, I have to work to get my range and mindset to use the shin. Often I made contact with the instep.

The pad was pretty hard (made for Muy Thai.) Hitting with the instep stung a little and I could feel some pressure on my ankle joint. When I hit with the shin, no pain and the power seemed stronger - no give at all. Also, the surface area is not that large (as the leading edge of the shin is rather sharp) so I think more damage can be done with it than with the shin, even though there is less leverage. Of course, this weapon only works with closer range tactics and follow-up is with elbows and knees.

As far as breaking goes, I have only used hand techniques. I have seen very traditional gojuryu black belts have a 2" x 4" swung and broken against their shin; baseball bat as well. My sensei is able to do the same. But do not run out to Home Depot or Dick's Sporting Goods and try this yourself. Many years of ashi kitai (leg conditioning) is required. I don't think the instep can be conditioned enough to safely accomplish such a feat. Definitely not by me!

 

[InfiniteLoop]

ITF Breaking competitions specify the "Tool" to be used. I was at a camp once where the guy broke 5 standard 1 x 12 boards with an instep, but he was a freak of nature. My thought is certain Tools are less likely to be injured than others for power breaks and the Ball of the foot is less likely to be injured than the instep.

I guess our own Dirty Dog is a freak of nature.

 

[dvcochran]

ITF Breaking competitions specify the "Tool" to be used. I was at a camp once where the guy broke 5 standard 1 x 12 boards with an instep, but he was a freak of nature. My thought is certain Tools are less likely to be injured than others for power breaks and the Ball of the foot is less likely to be injured than the instep.

Sir, I know a man who has done 6 board break like this. He has done 5 countless times. Your 'freak of nature' reference is spot on. The way Roy (his name) describes the kick it is really more of a Thai kick. He is able to flex his foot so far forward that when he does the kick the force is really on the very highest part of the foot/lowest end of the leg. Somehow it does not hurt the joint of his foot. He has always said his very high arch's may have something to do with it.
Conversely, he cannot do a ball of the foot break for squat.

 

[paitingman]

I remember first doing 3/4" thick pine boards with the instep for demo team when I was 10 or 11.
The older guys would sometimes do two of the boards stacked together with the instep.

I'm in my 30s now and my insteps are very tough and healthy.
No one at the gym will let me kick them with my bare foot to their leg/arm, wherever lol.
Using the instep can be like hitting someone with a tightly bound bag of rocks, supported by your ankle.

 

[MadMartigan]

As said, it comes down to body conditioning (and to a degree, predisposition). The general rule I teach is, (unless you're going to invest in body conditioning to not get injured) use a soft tool against a hard target and a hard tool against a soft target.

Besides the exceptions to the rule (those freaks of nature as you called them), the ball of the foot is less likely to result in injury to yourself when hitting either a board, or a skull (in the context of using bare feet). The same applies to the hand. A hammer fist is far safer than using your knuckles to break a brick. The body 'can' be conditioned to do it safely (in most cases) but the soft side of the hand will nearly always be safer.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What does ITF have to do with whether it was ball of the foot? KKW taught ball of the foot as well in the 70s, as evident by their first textbook...

Because that is what the ITF taught, and at that time I was training in ITF schools.

 

[andyjeffries]

I have been corrected by a Kyokushin guy regarding the instep to the skull. He explains that the force dissipates, unlike when you hit bone on bone to an elbow. So the foot usually doesn't break. Instep to the skull is perfectly fine in his words..

Having established that, is the reason you don't do instep breaking on wood that the force doesn't dissipate?

This feels like a logical fallacy, but I struggle to think exactly which one.

"Someone I know said X, given that we've established that..." - wait, that's not establishing something as fact, that's a hearsay opinion!

 

[InfiniteLoop]

This feels like a logical fallacy, but I struggle to think exactly which one.

"Someone I know said X, given that we've established that..." - wait, that's not establishing something as fact, that's a hearsay opinion!

Why would he make it up? The physics makes sense too

 

[dvcochran]

This feels like a logical fallacy, but I struggle to think exactly which one.

"Someone I know said X, given that we've established that..." - wait, that's not establishing something as fact, that's a hearsay opinion!

“Stupid is as stupid does” comes to mind.

 

[Earl Weiss]

This feels like a logical fallacy, but I struggle to think exactly which one.

"Someone I know said X, given that we've established that..." - wait, that's not establishing something as fact, that's a hearsay opinion!

Arguing to authority. When in fact it's an opinion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have been corrected by a Kyokushin guy regarding the instep to the skull. He explains that the force dissipates, unlike when you hit bone on bone to an elbow. So the foot usually doesn't break. Instep to the skull is perfectly fine in his words..

Having established that, is the reason you don't do instep breaking on wood that the force doesn't dissipate?

Also, how common is it for people to break their toes when failling their ball of their foot roundhouse?

I'm totally lost with this type of question. To me it sounds like a bunch of false choices. It's like asking me to argue which is better to crack my skull, a wooden bat or a metal bat? I don't think my skull will know the difference, my ears may know the difference, but beyond that, my skull isn't going debate with my mind on how one bat was weaker than the other.

There seems to be an assumption here about the instep of the foot. I was going to go into a bunch of details but I don't have the energy anymore.

Kicks done with the instep

These are kick done with the ball of the foot.

Now that I've shown this, what are you questions?

Force dissipating isn't a bad thing. It may just means that something can be thrown harder over a larger service. Dissipating force doesn't mean the strike will be weaker. What it does mean is that you don't risk the damage of trying to support the force of a strike on a singular smaller structure of your body. Like punching a with a fist vs That same energy put into a finger strike.

Breaking toes when striking with the ball of the foot just means you probably didn't pull back the toes, or pulling the foot back, or the delivery of your kick and or kicking mechanics are off. Easy test. Kick various objects like soccer ball , basket ball, bowling ball, with your toe and then kick it with the ball of your foot. The one that is the most painful, then don't kick that way.

I can kick a wooden door in with the ball of my foot or the heel of my foot. I cannot do it by kicking with my toes.

I hope this clears things up for you. I'm not sure what mission you are on, but I think you'll get more enjoyment out of saying what you believe vs asking question to try to shape the answers to your way of thinking. One thing about martial arts. The more honest about yourself and what you think, the more you'll learn.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why would he make it up? The physics makes sense too

I personally would try things from a position of body mechanics. Unless you are completely into Physics as a professional.

 

[andyjeffries]

Why would he make it up? The physics makes sense too

Why would he make it up... crazy, mistaken, messing with you, believes the earth is flat (although that's kind of redundant having written "crazy" as the first option)

If you're asking for which one, then "objection your honour, asking the witness to speak about a third party's state of mind".

The point is, who knows why he said it, but you can't assume it as absolute fact just because someone said it. Even someone you trust (that the rest of us wouldn't recognise if we walked in to them in the street)