Rooting and Bad Weight Distribution

[geezer]

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FWIW- I dont turn on K! points- nor did Ip Man.Wong Shon Leung, Ho Kam Ming, Fong chi wing.

Some of Ip Man's students did turn on "the center of the foot" (which sounds like what KPM means when he uses the term "K-1"), and worked very hard to perfect that method. Did they get that method from Grandmaster Ip? I don't know. At any rate, that method does exist in the Ip Man lineage.

 

[guy b]

Some of Ip Man's students did turn on "the center of the foot" (which sounds like what KPM means when he uses the term "K-1"), and worked very hard to perfect that method. Did they get that method from Grandmaster Ip? I don't know. At any rate, that method does exist in the Ip Man lineage.

Sounds like a classic case of misunderstanding and propagating that misunderstading into the future

 

[Xue Sheng]

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FWIW- I dont turn on K! points- nor did Ip Man.Wong Shon Leung, Ho Kam Ming, Fong chi wing.

Nobody does, that is where you root however. The question was what is the K1 point and I posted the picture

 

[KPM]

I think I am not sinking as deep into my stance as I thought. I have always struggled with stance. I have always been good at the techniques themselves and having a light touch during chi sao, but getting the whole body connected so my mechanics generate the right amount of power? Meh.

Still working on it.

Steve, not everyone will agree with me. But this is how I see if from a biomechanical perspective. If you are pivoting on the heels, it is harder to sink your weight forward so that your balance is maintained. You have to keep a given percentage of your weight further back simply to off-load the front part of your foot so that your toes can "swing" when you pivot on the heels. If you are pivoting further forward on the foot so that the heels are "swinging" rather than your toes, then you can keep your weight further forward, can sink lower, and can grip a bit better with your toes as you pivot. All of these factors make your stance more rooted and stable during the pivot. Again, this is just biomechanics. No doubt some will refuse to see this. But it is just a biomechanical fact nonetheless.

 

[KPM]

Sounds like a classic case of misunderstanding and propagating that misunderstading into the future

Go back and watch the old classic footage of Ip Man. He most certainly was NOT pivoting on his heels in those videos!

 

[KPM]

Nobody does, that is where you root however. The question was what is the K1 point and I posted the picture

Leung Sheung Wing Chun, Leung Ting Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.....all pivot at a similar spot near the middle of the foot and not on the heels.

 

[Jake104]

Hey folks,

For years now, rooting has been my enemy. I can feel this problem the most when I am doing the pivoting punches at the end of Chum Kiu. It feels like instead of my weight being centered in the foot, it is rocking back into my heel. This makes it VERY easy to uproot me and, in turn, makes it hard for me to uproot others.

Can someone please give me some advice on how to break this habit?

My advise and what has helped me is forward intent.. It's not just a buzz word or the act of going forward. It's a MINDSET. It has to alway be there with or without contact. The heels the balls of feet are all good, cause in reality you may not have the choice.. Trust me a good grappler can blow through both..So the forward intent mentality if practiced right will help keep you rooted..

I'll ad that you may want to use a wall or tree to pivot against.. this will help with both testing your root and practicing forward intent.

My first Sifu gave a great analogy of weight distribution.. He said it's like walking. If someone told you you had to have this amount of weight on this foot or you had to only use your heel or toes. You wouldn't of learned how to walk right. Walking is a constant transition of weight and balance. So shifting or moving in WC should be the same. By the way I first learned to pivot using heel toe heel toe.

 

[wingchun100]

My advise and what has helped me is forward intent.. It's not just a buzz word or the act of going forward. It's a MINDSET. It has to alway be there with or without contact. The heels the balls of feet are all good, cause in reality you may not have the choice.. Trust me a good grappler can blow through both..So the forward intent mentality if practiced right will help keep you rooted..

I'll ad that you may want to use a wall or tree to pivot against.. this will help with both testing your root and practicing forward intent.

My first Sifu gave a great analogy of weight distribution.. He said it's like walking. If someone told you you had to have this amount of weight on this foot or you had to only use your heel or toes. You wouldn't of learned how to walk right. Walking is a constant transition of weight and balance. So shifting or moving in WC should be the same. By the way I first learned to pivot using heel toe heel toe.

How would I use the wall or tree to pivot against? I am sorry if that is a "dumb" question, but I am having trouble visualizing what you mean.

 

[wingchun100]

I think that I am more out of touch now than when I started this thread.

I guess that, just like with anything I am doing wrong, I will simply have to make a conscious effort to distribute my weight better...until it becomes an automatic thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Leung Sheung Wing Chun, Leung Ting Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.....all pivot at a similar spot near the middle of the foot and not on the heels.

I never said, or even implied, pivot on the heal, and near the Yongquan is not the Yongquan

 

[Vajramusti]

I never said, or even implied, pivot on the heal, and near the Yongquan is not the Yongquan

Correct

 

[Vajramusti]

Leung Sheung Wing Chun, Leung Ting Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.....all pivot at a similar spot near the middle of the foot and not on the heels.

sure- so what

 

[wingchun100]

I was just browsing a Facebook group called Wing Chun Forum, which featured this exact same problem of where to pivot. The original poster asked about pivoting on the heels, and someone gave him a response that made the light go on in my head. They said, "Pivot with your hips. The feet will follow."

I stood up, got into my stance, and put this practice into use. I thought about my hips instead of my feet, and wouldn't you know it? It already feels like I am improving! Maybe not everyone will agree with it, but I'll be damned if I don't notice a difference THAT quickly!

 

[Vajramusti]

I was just browsing a Facebook group called Wing Chun Forum, which featured this exact same problem of where to pivot. The original poster asked about pivoting on the heels, and someone gave him a response that made the light go on in my head. They said, "Pivot with your hips. The feet will follow."

I stood up, got into my stance, and put this practice into use. I thought about my hips instead of my feet, and wouldn't you know it? It already feels like I am improving! Maybe not everyone will agree with it, but I'll be damned if I don't notice a difference THAT quickly!

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FWIW-don't depend on internet and videos' Hunt for a good sifu-isn't easy.

 

[wingchun100]

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FWIW-don't depend on internet and videos' Hunt for a good sifu-isn't easy.

I already have a good Sifu, but he is not always available. With that in mind, I still don't follow what anyone says blindly, whether they are a Sifu or not. I tested it out and noticed an immediate improvement. I will run it by Sifu when I see him again, but for now it seems to be the answer I needed.

 

[Cephalopod]

... "Pivot with your hips. The feet will follow."

I stood up, got into my stance, and put this practice into use. I thought about my hips instead of my feet, and wouldn't you know it? It already feels like I am improving! Maybe not everyone will agree with it, but I'll be damned if I don't notice a difference THAT quickly!

Right on!
That's exactly right. Your hips turn and, if your legs remain springy, your feet will get dragged behind as much as they need to. This also prevents you from opening your front foot more than necessary and exposing your shin and groin, which beginners will often do if they think about initiating the turn with the feet.

With regard to the pivot point being the heel or the middle foot:

From my perspective, balance is most critical is when there is a clash between me and my opponent. The resulting force between us will invariably drive my weight back toward my heels. The pivot is used to allow that force (in that instant) to go by me, to bypass the force. it is the force from my opponent that drives the pivot.

All this to say that I want to be very comfortable turning on my heels because that is where the weight is going to be when I really need to turn. Hence, I do chum kiu with heel pivots.

Once, my sifu told us to train with our weight right at the back of our heels where it felt like we were about to tip over. I thought that was very bizarre until I understood the exercise: Don't panic, just absorb by sinking and turning.

 

[wingchun100]

Right on!
That's exactly right. Your hips turn and, if your legs remain springy, your feet will get dragged behind as much as they need to. This also prevents you from opening your front foot more than necessary and exposing your shin and groin, which beginners will often do if they think about initiating the turn with the feet.

With regard to the pivot point being the heel or the middle foot:

From my perspective, balance is most critical is when there is a clash between me and my opponent. The resulting force between us will invariably drive my weight back toward my heels. The pivot is used to allow that force (in that instant) to go by me, to bypass the force. it is the force from my opponent that drives the pivot.

All this to say that I want to be very comfortable turning on my heels because that is where the weight is going to be when I really need to turn. Hence, I do chum kiu with heel pivots.

Once, my sifu told us to train with our weight right at the back of our heels where it felt like we were about to tip over. I thought that was very bizarre until I understood the exercise: Don't panic, just absorb by sinking and turning.

The other flaw in my body mechanics is sinking my weight down. Even though wing chun has a high stance, I am TOO high. But the solution to that is realizing it and making a conscious effort to sink until it becomes natural.

 

[Jake104]

How would I use the wall or tree to pivot against? I am sorry if that is a "dumb" question, but I am having trouble visualizing what you mean.

Just get in your ygkym and in your Wing Chun structure (elbows in) press on a fixed object. If you get rebound adjust until you can get that energy into the ground. Then start to pivot or move in general. I use it to pivot angle switch stances etc.. You don't want to lean though...I have found when I don't have a partner, I try to use unconventional ways of training.. Seems to work for me.

 

[geezer]

sure- so what

I think KPM's point is that these are highly competent people, so there is clearly more than one way to effectively accomplish stance turning.

Just get in your ygkym and in your Wing Chun structure (elbows in) press on a fixed object. If you get rebound adjust until you can get that energy into the ground. Then start to pivot or move in general. I use it to pivot angle switch stances etc.. You don't want to lean though...I have found when I don't have a partner, I try to use unconventional ways of training.. Seems to work for me.

Not such a strange concept. After all, the dummy is basically a tree!

 

[Jake104]

Steve you are good example of pivoting. You have injuries that might not allow you to pivot one particular way? So for some to say it has to be done a certain way....where does that leave you? I've trained with you and we have discussed this.. You've had to adapt right? I now pivot in away that keeps me rooted. I really don't pay much attention to it much anymore..But I think we originally learned In a very similar way. So that's why I say you have to ad pressure to really FEEL what works.

I do like the springing Dummie also. There is something to those that I like. Especially for class clinch work..