Roeder: No regrets after shooting doctor

[Deaf Smith]

My position on abortion is simple.

When I can have one, it's an issue for me.
When someone carrying my kid is considering one, it's an issue for me.
Other than that, not my concern, not my place, not my problem.
The person who chooses to have one is the one who has to live with the physical, emotional and mental fallout, not me.

Bob,

I do think abortion is wrong. And I do think abortion is a form of murder. And it's a legaly sanctioned form and that makes it even more disgusting.

BUT, doing murder to stop murder is not right. There are many things one can do to try to stop it. Protest is one, legislation another, shunning and shaming a third. Boycotting would be a forth.

I find it difficult to believe with all these PETA people throwing red paint on people wearing fur that guy could not have done that to him!

Or hey, if it is going to shoot, shoot his hands off! Anything but take his life.

For killing that one abortionist won't stop abortion. It will have to take a change of heart in society to stop it. Just like it took such a change of heart to stop Gladiatorial fights in ancient Rome. And that won’t happen overnight.

Deaf

 

[Ken Morgan]

Bob,

I do think abortion is wrong. And I do think abortion is a form of murder. And it's a legaly sanctioned form and that makes it even more disgusting.

BUT, doing murder to stop murder is not right. There are many things one can do to try to stop it. Protest is one, legislation another, shunning and shaming a third. Boycotting would be a forth.

I find it difficult to believe with all these PETA people throwing red paint on people wearing fur that guy could not have done that to him!

Or hey, if it is going to shoot, shoot his hands off! Anything but take his life.

For killing that one abortionist won't stop abortion. It will have to take a change of heart in society to stop it. Just like it took such a change of heart to stop Gladiatorial fights in ancient Rome. And that won’t happen overnight.

Deaf

If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?

 

[Marginal]

For all of about a week, then he'll be tired of them...

Like TEZ said on another older thread, why would you want a virgin, wouldn't you rather have someone with some experience?

Dennis Miller has an old joke about that too. I gave him a few too many virgins on top of all that. Ah well.

 

[Blade96]

If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?

interestingly, hitler and stalin were against abortion.

something i like to bring up whenever nut bars here (and we have some every place does) starts comparing pro - choice people to the gestapo because we have censored their misleading information (I could explain what happened here if someone wants) and abortion to the holocaust.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

interestingly, hitler and stalin were against abortion.

something i like to bring up whenever nut bars here (and we have some every place does) starts comparing pro - choice people to the gestapo because we have censored their misleading information (I could explain what happened here if someone wants) and abortion to the holocaust.

That may be true, but they were also eugenists. They may not have believed in abortion simply because they believed that all but a certain class of people shouldn't be able to reproduce in the first place, and should be slaughtered in the second place.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

The need goes a lot further than that. We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on. Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.

It was a very consistent pattern at the clinic where I volunteered; every so often a woman would change her mind in the waiting room and come back out. The protesters would all hold hands and pray over her and then send her on her way. It was always a clinic escort who would then flag her down and tell her about resources like WIC and Medicare that would make a productive difference. I even pointed that out to a couple of protesters and asked why that was ... their answer was always ":idunno:" It's too bad, because it would give them a hell of a lot more credibility.

No offense, but what you're saying is that we should be even more of a facist nation so that we can pay for the mistakes / decisions of others.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Bob,

I do think abortion is wrong. And I do think abortion is a form of murder. And it's a legaly sanctioned form and that makes it even more disgusting.

For killing that one abortionist won't stop abortion. It will have to take a change of heart in society to stop it. Just like it took such a change of heart to stop Gladiatorial fights in ancient Rome. And that won’t happen overnight.

Deaf

Yes, But there can be solid reasons for abortion, such as rape, incest (different kind of rape) or life threatening illness to both the mother and the child. I don't think abortion is ever a good solution. I just think it is sometimes the least bad one.

For example if the mother gets blood poisoning (rare but can happen), losing just the child is better than waiting till the mother dies and then losing the child as well. Sometimes life hits you in the face hard, and allowing more people to die than needed, just to uphold personal moral convictions is wrong.

However, killing someone simply because you disagree with them is something on a different scale imo.

 

[Bruno@MT]

No offense, but what you're saying is that we should be even more of a facist nation so that we can pay for the mistakes / decisions of others.

While I am not going to judge on whether or not that is a good thing (that's a separate discussion please) -A- solution is needed. If you are protesting against abortus, fine, but then you should be prepared to discuss other solutions.

Just shouting that you don't like abortion and then refusing to talk about other solutions is not productive. Saying 'we don't care about your problem, we just don't want you to solve it like this' will not help.

If preventing abortion is important enough for people to care about, they should be prepared to help prevent it, and not just by yelling at people and scaring them. And if it is not important enough that they'd be prepared to do that, they have no reason to harrass people in the first place.

EDIT: This is a bit like the environmentalist nutters who had a one-time influence in our government and used it to break the nuclear sector. They didn't care about working out alternative solutions or acknowledge that we needed the energy. They just rallied against anything nuclear, nevermind that our mox technology was great and we had very little nuclear waste. Nuclear was evil. In the end we lost a part of our high-tech industry and we import nuclear energy from France.

 

[Blade96]

That may be true, but they were also eugenists. They may not have believed in abortion simply because they believed that all but a certain class of people shouldn't be able to reproduce in the first place, and should be slaughtered in the second place.

true enough, but they were also dictators and dictators don't even like women having control over their own reproductive destinies.

That and they also wanted to increase the populations of their own countries.

 

[Flea]

This conversation seems to be going the way of most abortion threads/conversations with all the usual arguments. So in a spirit of equanimity and respect I'll bow out now. Thanks to all for taking my comments at face value.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?

Wouldn't have to murder them either.

Ever hear of Bernard Goetz?

Well only one of the 4 'youths' he shot never committed a crime again. Guess which one and why.

Deaf

 

[Bruno@MT]

If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?

No.

WW2 would have happened anyway. Initially, Hitler was chosen by the nazis as a figure head because the man could deliver passioate speaches. But they were already rising in power. Hitler didn't cause WW2. I would even say that the Germans are not all to blame. WW2 would not have happened if the aftermath of WW1 had been handled differently.

And as bad as Hitler was, he was also a nutcase, who took some critically wrong decisions that cost him the war. If he had not broken the non aggression pact with Russia and kept Russia happy as a neutral party, he would have steam rolled right over the rest of Europe.

Had Hitler been shot, WW2 would still have happened. Perhaps his replacement would have been less of a nutcase. He himself would have been martyred which would not have been good either for the allies.

Hitler was the personification of the feelings / hopes / anger / emotions of an entire nation. Shooting him would not have prevented the war, and it might or might not have made things worse. No way to tell, but WW2 wouldn't NOT have happened.

 

[Ken Morgan]

No.

WW2 would have happened anyway. Initially, Hitler was chosen by the nazis as a figure head because the man could deliver passioate speaches. But they were already rising in power. Hitler didn't cause WW2. I would even say that the Germans are not all to blame. WW2 would not have happened if the aftermath of WW1 had been handled differently.

And as bad as Hitler was, he was also a nutcase, who took some critically wrong decisions that cost him the war. If he had not broken the non aggression pact with Russia and kept Russia happy as a neutral party, he would have steam rolled right over the rest of Europe.

Had Hitler been shot, WW2 would still have happened. Perhaps his replacement would have been less of a nutcase. He himself would have been martyred which would not have been good either for the allies.

Hitler was the personification of the feelings / hopes / anger / emotions of an entire nation. Shooting him would not have prevented the war, and it might or might not have made things worse. No way to tell, but WW2 wouldn't NOT have happened.

Crap I don't have time to answer properly...

Its all meaningless "what ifs" anyway, but I think I disagree.

The Nazis didn't rise until Hitler let them use violence against the voters, and rigged the results. Who is to say another leader would have done the same?

After the Germans moved into the Rhineland in 1935, the stage was almsot set. Who's to say another leader would have been so bold? Had the UK and France stood up to teh Nazis then, they would have collapsed.

too many what if's..

 

[Bruno@MT]

There are too many what ifs to say for sure. But it could easily have been worse, rather than better. Shooting or disposing leaders rarely has a straightforward effect. It didn't work as intended in Iran and it didn't work as intended in Iraq either.

I think it is safe to say killing Hitler or Stalin would probably not have had the intended result either. They were children of their time, in a context created by the actions of several countries and tens of millions of people. Hitler represented the sentiments of the majority at the time or he would not have been allowed to grab power like he did.

Standing up to Germany before WW2 was not a simple decisions either, as Both France and the UK were still weakened from WW1 and they were tired of war. Germany otoh had the 'advantage' of being humiliated by the other countries. The nazis had an easy time playing to the German emotions and kicking the patriotism and war machine into gear.

 

[searcher]

I was just talking with my father-in-law about this the other day. We are all VERY Pro-life in my family, but I am also very much against murder.

I have tried to see both sides of this, but I only seem to end up with my head spinning. Murder is murder and I wish this thing would never have happened. Here is the kicker, where do you draw the line? If they let him off, it will be open season on abortion Drs. And we cannot have that at all costs.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

To me, it's simple:

Taking a gun and shooting someone and killing them = murder, according to the law, courts and police.
Going to an abortion clinic and having an abortion != murder, according to the law, courts and police.

You are not the law therefore acting as such is not legal.
Even if you are the law, abortion is legal therefore it is not your place to be judge, jury and executioner to stop it.

There are legal ways to protest without killing I would think...

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

While I am not going to judge on whether or not that is a good thing (that's a separate discussion please) -A- solution is needed. If you are protesting against abortus, fine, but then you should be prepared to discuss other solutions.

Just shouting that you don't like abortion and then refusing to talk about other solutions is not productive. Saying 'we don't care about your problem, we just don't want you to solve it like this' will not help.

If preventing abortion is important enough for people to care about, they should be prepared to help prevent it, and not just by yelling at people and scaring them. And if it is not important enough that they'd be prepared to do that, they have no reason to harrass people in the first place.

EDIT: This is a bit like the environmentalist nutters who had a one-time influence in our government and used it to break the nuclear sector. They didn't care about working out alternative solutions or acknowledge that we needed the energy. They just rallied against anything nuclear, nevermind that our mox technology was great and we had very little nuclear waste. Nuclear was evil. In the end we lost a part of our high-tech industry and we import nuclear energy from France.

There is a solution... don't get pregnant.

But for some reason, that doesn't seem to be an acceptable answer. So, rather then a person having to live with the consequences of their negative behavior, we allow them to compound it by killing a child.

The help is out there already though, WIC, AFDC, food stamps, welfare, etc. Sure, maybe the protestors could actually offer those as alternatives to people. I get that. But then again, maybe they disagree with those as well. Personally, I would point them in the direction of charities and counseling services.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

true enough, but they were also dictators and dictators don't even like women having control over their own reproductive destinies.

That and they also wanted to increase the populations of their own countries.

I actually disagree with your first statement. There reasons for being against abortion were your second statement. In typical leftist fashion, as they were indeed leftist, the needs of the individual become a distant second to the needs of the whole. They needed a particular group of people to breed in order to create the "Master Race", and they needed a lot of them. This was not about keeping women from controlling their "reproductive destinies", but them doing what they thought was necessary for the good of mankind, however misguided they might have been.

 

[Carol]

I actually disagree with your first statement. There reasons for being against abortion were your second statement. In typical leftist fashion, as they were indeed leftist, the needs of the individual become a distant second to the needs of the whole. They needed a particular group of people to breed in order to create the "Master Race", and they needed a lot of them. This was not about keeping women from controlling their "reproductive destinies", but them doing what they thought was necessary for the good of mankind, however misguided they might have been.

I agree, but the reasons aren't isolated. Its cause-and-effect, yes?