Roeder: No regrets after shooting doctor

[Ken Morgan]

No way, man. The last thing the movement needs is another martyr.

(Be advised that the above link includes some very graphic photos, a common rhetoric for anti-abortion extremists. Their choice of music in the video is totally surreal, and illustrates my point perfectly.)

Pax vobiscum.

Wow

 

[Blade96]

No way, man. The last thing the movement needs is another martyr.

(Be advised that the above link includes some very graphic photos, a common rhetoric for anti-abortion extremists. Their choice of music in the video is totally surreal, and illustrates my point perfectly.)

Pax vobiscum.

Wow

Yes - wow. I know well of paul hill. He was the first person in the usa to be executed for killing an abortion provider and had ties to a group of fundy nutbars called the army of god.

and i cant believe in that video one wingnut actually compared his execution to jesus' crucifiction. Wtf? They never had abortion back then.....so it wasnt even an issue in jesus's time, more than 2,000 years ago! Just another example of them claiming they 'know' thou shall not kill and jesus' concern meant the abolition of woman's reproductive life as well (making women have babies because every conceived fetus 'must' be born no matter what the circumstances)

What arrogance, that these people think they know exactly what a god or Jesus wants.

 

[Flea]

Seriously. I wouldn't say that anyone opposed to abortion is unstable or dangerous, even if they're militant. But it's a lightning-rod issue that attracts the flightiest moths to the flame. I escorted patients at my local clinic for a couple years and I could tell you some real forehead-slappers on some of the protesters. Only a tiny handful out of the crowd, but ... shee. I never got really scared for my safety while I was there, but I definitely wondered. I got threatened once or twice by a protester who picked me out. This was before I ever thought of taking MA. A lot of the other escorts were MA'its by coincidence.

My state legislature is in the process of rubber-stamping more anti-abortion measures this session. My budget is slim, but I need to make another donation to the RCRC.

 

[PeteMc]

Gross video =P... but I would have to say that I am against any abortion personally, but I don't look down on people who get them or are thinking about getting them. And I dont feel bad for the man who shot the doctor... I hope he gets life.. *not death* because I believe that man has no right *unless in self defense* to take a life of another... but that's just my take on it... although the Doctor to me was not a very "righteous" man, he didn't deserver to be executed that's between him and God.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Women have always had access to abortions. The old midwives knew very well what herbs to take, or how to physically make it happen.

Today in many countries it takes place under medical conditions, where the women are 99.99% of the time assured of their safety. No more back alleys or butchers calling themselves doctors.

If you are against abortion then try and have the laws changed, to do anything else, well to do anything like Flea has so blatantly shown us, is fanatical in the worst sense of the word.

 

[Flea]

What Ken said. Abortion has always been around along with contraception, to varying degrees of safety and effectiveness.

The opposition to abortion leaves me scratching my head - I sincerely don't understand why anyone would feel that way. I respect people who do. Until it crosses the line and they try to get coercive. Then I don my orange vest and hang out at the clinic door. :mst:

I will say that the vast majority of anti-abortion folk qualify their position with "but who am I to judge someone who gets one." When I say that that's precisely the pro-choice position, they look surprised. I think we've all been spoon-fed a lot of inflammatory rhetoric to keep the minions riled up. We all need to slow down and breathe on this issue.

 

[PeteMc]

What Ken said. Abortion has always been around along with contraception, to varying degrees of safety and effectiveness.

The opposition to abortion leaves me scratching my head - I sincerely don't understand why anyone would feel that way. I respect people who do. Until it crosses the line and they try to get coercive. Then I don my orange vest and hang out at the clinic door. :mst:

I will say that the vast majority of anti-abortion folk qualify their position with "but who am I to judge someone who gets one." When I say that that's precisely the pro-choice position, they look surprised. I think we've all been spoon-fed a lot of inflammatory rhetoric to keep the minions riled up. We all need to slow down and breathe on this issue.

Personally, the reason I am not "Pro-Choice" is because of A)My faith B.) Pictures I have seen of embryo's and C.) Some women I have talked to that regret having them. But some people are just all sorts of crazy and they take it to the extreme... I tend to disassociate with those people... But although it may be against my faith I do think that rape/incest abortions would be the only time to get one... but nonetheless I agree that we need to slow down and breathe haha especially if this topic makes you infuriated. =P

 

[Flea]

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[Carol]

Women have always had access to abortions. The old midwives knew very well what herbs to take, or how to physically make it happen.

Today in many countries it takes place under medical conditions, where the women are 99.99% of the time assured of their safety. No more back alleys or butchers calling themselves doctors.

If you are against abortion then try and have the laws changed, to do anything else, well to do anything like Flea has so blatantly shown us, is fanatical in the worst sense of the word.

I think folks that are against abortion should do what my sister and bro-in-law did, which was to open their hearts and homes to some difficult-to-adopt children.

There are some abortions that are done under circumstances that I do not particularly like. But to be honest, I find a lot of the anti-abortion rhetoric to be even more vile than abortion itself. If we as a people truly cared about a child's life as much as the propaganda says we do, then we wouldn't have so many foster children waiting for homes. Nor would we see the kind of disparity that we see, with disabled children and black male children waiting an average of 12 years to be placed in an adoptive home, if they are ever placed at all.

Loving ALL foster children enough to give them a permanent home and family....that would be truly "pro-life", yes?

 

[Ken Morgan]

I think folks that are against abortion should do what my sister and bro-in-law did, which was to open their hearts and homes to some difficult-to-adopt children.

There are some abortions that are done under circumstances that I do not particularly like. But to be honest, I find a lot of the anti-abortion rhetoric to be even more vile than abortion itself. If we as a people truly cared about a child's life as much as the propaganda says we do, then we wouldn't have so many foster children waiting for homes. Nor would we see the kind of disparity that we see, with disabled children and black male children waiting an average of 12 years to be placed in an adoptive home, if they are ever placed at all.

Loving ALL foster children enough to give them a permanent home and family....that would be truly "pro-life", yes?

:asian:

 

[Blade96]

Personally, the reason I am not "Pro-Choice" is because of A)My faith B.) Pictures I have seen of embryo's and C.) Some women I have talked to that regret having them. But some people are just all sorts of crazy and they take it to the extreme... I tend to disassociate with those people... But although it may be against my faith I do think that rape/incest abortions would be the only time to get one... but nonetheless I agree that we need to slow down and breathe haha especially if this topic makes you infuriated. =P

I'd warn you to beware of looking at those pics of embryos pro lifers might show you. Because often they are distorted and blown up to make you believe they are 'babies' like babies that are already born, I mean they look like them. to make you believe they are 3rd trimester babies and what have you. Very few abortions happen in the third trimester but the pro lifers wont tell you that. and I know for a fact that at 2 months pregnant (around 60 days) for example an embryo is not mch bigger than a kidney bean. My bro's gf told us all about her pregnancy and showed her ultrasounds and such. But prolifers who are all sorts of crazy would blow it up, make it seem a fully formed 'baby' You see?

and I agree lots of pro lifers are all sorts of crazy, 17 different kinds in fact. But I have more respect for ones such as yourself who do make exceptions (such as rape and incest or when the mother's life is in danger. And those who say that its not their place to try and tell others what to do, as flea says they really are Pro Choice and not pro life.

 

[Flea]

Loving ALL foster children enough to give them a permanent home and family....that would be truly "pro-life", yes?

The need goes a lot further than that. We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on. Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.

It was a very consistent pattern at the clinic where I volunteered; every so often a woman would change her mind in the waiting room and come back out. The protesters would all hold hands and pray over her and then send her on her way. It was always a clinic escort who would then flag her down and tell her about resources like WIC and Medicare that would make a productive difference. I even pointed that out to a couple of protesters and asked why that was ... their answer was always ":idunno:" It's too bad, because it would give them a hell of a lot more credibility.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The need goes a lot further than that. We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on. Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.

It was a very consistent pattern at the clinic where I volunteered; every so often a woman would change her mind in the waiting room and come back out. The protesters would all hold hands and pray over her and then send her on her way. It was always a clinic escort who would then flag her down and tell her about resources like WIC and Medicare that would make a productive difference. I even pointed that out to a couple of protesters and asked why that was ... their answer was always ":idunno:" It's too bad, because it would give them a hell of a lot more credibility.

You know Flea it's people like you who are the real unsung heros of our society. Thank you.

 

[PeteMc]

I'd warn you to beware of looking at those pics of embryos pro lifers might show you. Because often they are distorted and blown up to make you believe they are 'babies' like babies that are already born, I mean they look like them. to make you believe they are 3rd trimester babies and what have you. Very few abortions happen in the third trimester but the pro lifers wont tell you that. and I know for a fact that at 2 months pregnant (around 60 days) for example an embryo is not mch bigger than a kidney bean. My bro's gf told us all about her pregnancy and showed her ultrasounds and such. But prolifers who are all sorts of crazy would blow it up, make it seem a fully formed 'baby' You see?

and I agree lots of pro lifers are all sorts of crazy, 17 different kinds in fact. But I have more respect for ones such as yourself who do make exceptions (such as rape and incest or when the mother's life is in danger. And those who say that its not their place to try and tell others what to do, as flea says they really are Pro Choice and not pro life.

Yeah, I personally believe that as soon as the sperm hits the egg that the baby is being formed... and I view that as life... although some scientist agree and disagree lol. I am glad that you respect the ''pro-lifers'' such as myself =P but there are definately not many of us out there haha I hate when I'm driving down my street and then a crazy woman comes and throws a sign of an aborted fetus on my window... I think that is rude and sends most people the wrong message haha especially when you are pro-life xD

The need goes a lot further than that. We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on. Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.

respect. this is something that is greatly needed.
Pete

 

[Flea]

You're welcome.

There's also the critical question of quality of life, and that gets drowned out in the screaming match. What's the point of bringing people into the world if it's just hell? UNICEF estimates that 11 million children under the age of 5 die every year of malnourishment. And that's just the food issue. Consider all the other evils that stem from poverty - disease, trafficking, violence ...

In many corners of the world there simply aren't the resources to survive, much less to thrive. No amount of parental love, good intentions, or prayer will bridge that gap. Isn't it more "pro-life" to manage our finite resources so we can improve the quality of life for everyone, rather than simply inflating our numbers arbitrarily? I think we need to re-frame the whole debate.

 

[Flea]

You know Flea it's people like you who are the real unsung heros of our society. Thank you.

I really appreciate that Ken.

Clinic escorting has a high turnover rate. It's a highly toxic environment in psychological terms, and can be physically dangerous too. It's very hard to be the target of all that vitriol from the protesters, and to absorb the hate directed at the patients going in. It sounds cliche, but I've seen "good Christians" shouting WHORE at women going in. Oh, you were raped? To bad - two wrongs don't make a right. Now show a little personal responsibility and read this pamphlet. I would always make small talk with the patients to distract them - the weather, sports, bad jokes. Occasionally they would come back outside after the protesters left and thank us.

Ultimately I left because I realized I was absorbing it and turning into some of the protesters - getting just as hateful and obsessive as they were. It became personal in an unhealthy way. It was making me a liability. I tried going back once and it didn't work out - I just got all wound up and angry again. Part of me misses it, mostly because the work is so urgently needed. I feel like I abandoned my friends.

Instead, I make donations to groups concerned with reproductive freedom. That's a valid contribution too, although it doesn't feel the same.

 

[Blade96]

Yeah, I personally believe that as soon as the sperm hits the egg that the baby is being formed... and I view that as life... although some scientist agree and disagree lol.

yeah its alive. anyone who know the difference know that a fertilized egg is alive....a sperm is alive....an egg is alive. its all life. I think the real issue is whether it should have 'personhood' like you and me. is it a 'baby' and there's where we disagree. Personally I cant see 'one cell' or even a blastocyst, having the same rights and stuff as i do. i have many reasons for that. But meh.

 

[Marginal]

I'm assuming because he believes in a god/jesus he will be forgiven his sins and still get into his heaven.

Terrorists get 99 virgins. He'll be happy.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Terrorists get 99 virgins. He'll be happy.

For all of about a week, then he'll be tired of them...

Like TEZ said on another older thread, why would you want a virgin, wouldn't you rather have someone with some experience?

 

[Flea]

Terrorists get 99 virgins. He'll be happy.

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