Rmur mill about Poomsae

[exile]

I'd be interested in getting the information on this when you get a chance. Thank you.

This is what I have, m., from Abernethy's newsletter:

Purchase Link:
www.lulu.com/commerce/index.php?fBuyContent=4885762
(Cost: £2.90 Download - £7.51 Printed Version)

I'm very interested in this whole notion myself—I've no ambitions to create my own hyungs, lol, but I'm interested in what the author, David Nielsen, thinks are the critical elements that anyone who does create a kata or other kind of form has to take into account....

 

[YoungMan]

My take on this:

Forms are about much more than self defense. They should be a representation of the aesthetics, philosophy, and culture of the country that spawned them.
I do believe that new forms from the Kukkiwon are overdue. The current forms, though beautiful in their own right, are the result of a nation that had only become liberated from Japanese rule 20 years previously. I would love to see new forms that, while including self defense aspects, also include a truly Korean aethetic. I would love to see Taekkyun-influenced forms. It's not my decision obviously, but my personal preference. Perhaps 20 years from now, when I am an 8th or 9th Dan elder statesman it will fall to me to develop something new again.

 

[miguksaram]

This is what I have, m., from Abernethy's newsletter:

Purchase Link:
www.lulu.com/commerce/index.php?fBuyContent=4885762
(Cost: £2.90 Download - £7.51 Printed Version)

Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[dancingalone]

My take on this:

Forms are about much more than self defense. They should be a representation of the aesthetics, philosophy, and culture of the country that spawned them.
I do believe that new forms from the Kukkiwon are overdue. The current forms, though beautiful in their own right, are the result of a nation that had only become liberated from Japanese rule 20 years previously. I would love to see new forms that, while including self defense aspects, also include a truly Korean aethetic. I would love to see Taekkyun-influenced forms. It's not my decision obviously, but my personal preference. Perhaps 20 years from now, when I am an 8th or 9th Dan elder statesman it will fall to me to develop something new again.

YM, have you seen any of the Chil Sung or Yuk Rho hyung from Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do? Those were created by Hwang Kee, one of the kwan heads, and their performance ethos are decidedly different from any of the Japanese-influenced forms. Just curious if they were in line with what you were invisioning or not.

 

[Tez3]

And yet, one of the primary problems that the Kukkiwon had to deal with for years was the fact that the President did not practice Taekwondo. In other words, very high ranking men who did practice had to submit their students' applications for Dan and advanced Dan to be signed by a man who did not practice.
I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously. The fact that he happens to be a moderator for MT is totally irrelevant btw.
I'm glad he has shown such an interest in MA history and culture, as have I. The fact remains, however, that he is a 1st Dan with six years experience. In any legitmate Taekwondo organization that I can think of, he wouldn't even be allowed to judge.

:lfao::lfao::lfao:


I am supposed to laugh aren't I? it's not a real post surely!

Oh my dear youngman, if you could only see how pompous, patronising and insulting this sounds. I'm sure you mean well but oh dear, oh dear.

 

[exile]

Thanks. Much appreciated.

You're most welcome, m., and if we get a few people reading this book, there is probably a lively and constructive MT thread or two up the line, based on discussion of its content. I really hope something like that happens...

 

[bignick]

:lfao::lfao::lfao:


I am supposed to laugh aren't I? it's not a real post surely!

Oh my dear youngman, if you could only see how pompous, patronising and insulting this sounds. I'm sure you mean well but oh dear, oh dear.

A note, you should always be able to take someone's opinions seriously. Anyone who disregards someone else's ideas outright has some problems of their own. This doesn't mean we have to act or implement a white belt's ideas on running our classes. But the fact that you so readily dismiss exile's thoughts because of his experience is troubling.

He didn't even advocate anything, merely expressed an interest in seeing what they would eventually come up with. I don't see what anyone's rank has to do with statements like that. If someone told me the current head of Shotokan was coming up with some new forms based on his ideas of karate in a modern world I would find that interesting regardless of my total lack of experience in karate.

 

[Tez3]

A note, you should always be able to take someone's opinions seriously. Anyone who disregards someone else's ideas outright has some problems of their own. This doesn't mean we have to act or implement a white belt's ideas on running our classes. But the fact that you so readily dismiss exile's thoughts because of his experience is troubling.

He didn't even advocate anything, merely expressed an interest in seeing what they would eventually come up with. I don't see what anyone's rank has to do with statements like that. If someone told me the current head of Shotokan was coming up with some new forms based on his ideas of karate in a modern world I would find that interesting regardless of my total lack of experience in karate.

Er it wasn't me Guv!

 

[bignick]

Er it wasn't me Guv!

No, I meant to include YoungMan's post as well from your quote, my mistake.

 

[Tez3]

No, I meant to include YoungMan's post as well from your quote, my mistake.

No worries!

 

[YoungMan]

:lfao::lfao::lfao:


I am supposed to laugh aren't I? it's not a real post surely!

Oh my dear youngman, if you could only see how pompous, patronising and insulting this sounds. I'm sure you mean well but oh dear, oh dear.

It is a real post and I stand by it.

 

[exile]

It is a real post and I stand by it.

Well, of course it is, YM, and of course you do! I can't think of anyone else on MT who has ever demanded evidence of advanced dan rank from someone expressing an enthusiastic view of a possible new development in any martial art.

And with that, folks, I'd like to suggest that we rewind the clock a little bit and just pretend that YM's pretty much totally off-topic post never happened. Judging by the reception it got, we'd be just as happy to, and I suspect, in spite of his brave front in the above post, he'd probably be just as glad if we forgot about it too. My guess is, it hasn't had the intended effect—quite the reverse, in fact—and maybe the kindest thing we can all do is to just ignore his unfortunate initial post—I wouldn't disagree with a single thing anyone's said in response to it, but we're big people here, and we all know that sometimes the best thing to do is just roll your eyes and move on.

So what I'd like to do is return to Terry's OP and one of the points someone—miguksarum, I think?—raised above, because it's been nagging at me a little also: just what would a specifically dedicated SD-based hyung look like? I mean, if folks like our own Stuart Anslow (StuartA) and Simon John O'Neil (SJON) are right in their detailed practical analyses of TKD hyungs, there is a whole rich world of combat applications in the forms we already have. If they, and kata bunkai pioneers like Rick Clark and Iain Abernethy are right, the problem isn't with the forms themselves, but with the camouflage that was thrown over the interpretation of the pattern movements by Anko Itosu—and by his peers who, for whatever reason, went along happily with Itosu's repackaging of the fighting content of karate forms as simple punch-block-kick sequences. The advice of all these people is just: learn how to read the forms better, in a way closer to their original intent, rather than the way Itosu packaged them for the Okinawan school system. So exactly what would a form which tried to make its practical ready-for-use street combat content more obvious do differently?

You see what I'm wondering about? Short of hauling out a flag out of your dobok sleeve at the beginning of every new tech that announced, "Now I shall be showing how to deflect a hard shove from in initial Fence hand setup and follow it up with a grip on one of the attackers shoving arms and going inside with a hard horizontal elbow strike to his face, which I shall then convert via muchimi with the hand of the striking elbow arm, and a hard 180º pivot, into a throw-down", or whatever the new tech was all about, how would these new poomsae look different from the older classic ones? What would be distinctive about them that corresponded to their avowed SD orientation?

 

[YoungMan]

Agreed. Time to get back on topic.

Dancingalone, I saw clips of the forms you mentioned. The flow is sort of what I was thinking of, but I would combine the flowing action with the element of power prevalent in modern Taekwondo and add more kicks. I would like to see more jumping front and side kicks, as well as spin kicks and at least one jumping back roundhouse. In other words, take the flow of Taekkyun, but add power and the high, spinning, and jumping kicks of Korean kicking. Best of the old and new.

 

[dancingalone]

Dancingalone, I saw clips of the forms you mentioned. The flow is sort of what I was thinking of, but I would combine the flowing action with the element of power prevalent in modern Taekwondo and add more kicks. I would like to see more jumping front and side kicks, as well as spin kicks and at least one jumping back roundhouse. In other words, take the flow of Taekkyun, but add power and the high, spinning, and jumping kicks of Korean kicking. Best of the old and new.

I see. Do you envision these forms as self-defense oriented or are they more of a demo of what encompasses the art of taekwondo in your view? Nothing is wrong with either purpose IMO by the way.

just what would a specifically dedicated SD-based hyung look like?

If I were making some up right now, they would be very short. Perhaps limited to 15 moves or less, and they would have clear attacker and defender roles so one could practice both sides. I would probably call them waza rather than kata. Not sure what the Korean equivalent to waza is... If any of you have practiced any jujutsu arts, you probably have an idea of what I'm getting at.

 

[terryl965]

Ok I got done talking to some pretty high up people and they are not changes the Tae Gueks but adding additional poomsae to the exsisting one's. They are suppose to be three to five added at BB level that is more in line to self defense type of scenirio's. Which someone would hve some video of what they consider more SD like.

 

[IcemanSK]

Ok I got done talking to some pretty high up people and they are not changes the Tae Gueks but adding additional poomsae to the exsisting one's. They are suppose to be three to five added at BB level that is more in line to self defense type of scenirio's. Which someone would hve some video of what they consider more SD like.

Are the 1st two the one's introduced last year, or are they different ones? I'm hoping for different forms. The forms they introduced last year were not helpful.

 

[terryl965]

Are the 1st two the one's introduced last year, or are they different ones? I'm hoping for different forms. The forms they introduced last year were not helpful.

The way I understad it those from last year are notin the mix right now. These will be completely new in they are accepted by all.

 

[IcemanSK]

The way I understad it those from last year are notin the mix right now. These will be completely new in they are accepted by all.

Excellent news on both counts!:bangahead:

 

[exile]

Excellent news on both counts!:bangahead:

Agreed, most heartily.

 

[terryl965]

Excellent news on both counts!:bangahead:

I can only echoe what you have said.