Reverse Gravitational Marriage?

[JamesB]

James, thankyou for your reply. I understand what you are saying - I was just wondering aloud if distances involved in a "gravitational marriage" drop in height would be enough to achieve any significant acceleration....was a question more than anything else. I'll get my pad+paper out and see what I come up with

-james

 

[Sigung86]

A man whom I consider very wise, and who contributes here regularly (Who I will not out unless he does so), put the definition of Reverse Marriage of Gravity in a very succinct manner:

... And it brightens your teeth!!! ...

and that is pretty much a direct course.

 

[kenpoworks]

... And it brightens your teeth!!! ...

LOL, it certainly did it for me...thanks for sharing that.

Richy

 

[teej]

Reversing the effects of Gravitational Marriage is simply Back Up Mass.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[kenposikh]

Reversing the effects of Gravitational Marriage is simply Back Up Mass.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

Can you explain further please cos everything you do has back up mass even a finger poke ok not a lot but it's still there. So please elaborate to help me understand where your coming from.

 

[teej]

Can you explain further please cos everything you do has back up mass even a finger poke ok not a lot but it's still there. So please elaborate to help me understand where your coming from.

Sure I will. As you pointed out, everything has back up mass. Torque is back up mass with the added effects of torque, hence the term was given to this power principle "Torque".

Gravitational Marriage is again back up mass with the added benifit of the earths pull which is gravity. So this power principle was given the term name "Gravitational Marriage".

Now there is no such thing as "reverse gravity". It does not exist. We can all see astronauts training and in space with no gravity (zero gravity). But have you ever seen anything that reverses gravity??? Again, these is no such thing as reverse gravity.

If you have your knees bent, shift your weight forward into a forward bow with your strike you have back up mass. Your body weight behind your strike. If your knees are bent and you straighten them upward, you are forcing your body weight up. Your body weight is again behind the strike so you have back up mass. There is no such thing existing as "reverse gravity" to add to a strike done in this manner, so the power principle would simply be "back up mass".

Hope this helps, yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[jonah2]

For me the reverse gravitational marriage is to use the principle of marriage of gravity but in the reverse or opposite way. With marriage of gravity we settle our weight with the strike of our weapon into the target utilising the additional effect of gravity and therefore increasing back up mass and power transference.

With reverse gravitational marriage – as I see it – we use the exact same effect of gravity to increase power transference to the target but by dropping the target onto the weapon.

In my opinion the straightening of the legs for a reverse head-butt is not reverse marriage of gravity but is back up mass. As an example in my mind for reverse marriage of gravity try the back breaker when we bring the attacker down onto our grounded and stationary knee.

I agree with ‘teej’ that reverse gravity does not exist but IMHO the term reverse gravitational marriage does not mean to reverse the effects of gravity itself, but, to use the principal of gravitational marriage but oppositely ie body to weapon not weapon to body.

My opinions only – may be wrong

jonah

 

[teej]

to use the principal of gravitational marriage but oppositely ie body to weapon not weapon to body.

This is an interesting observation, however; the principles have not changed really. It is the opponents body weight (back up mass) hitting your knee that is causeing him injury. Now you are accelerating his weight by pulling him in the direction of the earths graviational pull. You are part of the equation because you are pulling him. But as I see this it is still his body weight hitting your weapon with the earths gravity behind it, so by definition, it is still Gravitational Marriage. Nothing reverse going on here as far as power principles are concerned.

My opinions only – may be wrong

Well I agree with you here. We all have one and we are all entitled to our own. The debate over "reverse gravitaional marriage" has been going on for years. It won't end today and I doubt we will see it end in our life time.

If we had one burnt out light bulb, one spare light bulb and a room full of kenp black belts, we would have several opinions on how to change the bulb.

So as I see it in my opinion there is no such thing as reverse gravitational marriage. As long as we can make the technique work and get that light bulb changed.......................... that is really all that matters.

Your brother in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[jonah2]

Granted Teej,

The underlying power principal in this discussion is back up mass but the additional effects of gravitational marriage are obvious and we are not opposing each others views here. The original question was ‘what is reverse gravitational marriage’. My opinion is that the term does not express ‘reverse’ in terms of the effects of gravity but in terms of application. ie not using the benefits of gravity with your weapon but the target itself. I see it almost a kin to borrowed force but purely in a vertical plane. If in the vertical plane, with target descending, we are using back up mass, borrowed force and the addition of the effects of gravity, but, not directly in terms of the documented gravitational marriage. A term for this slightly different application of a principal needs to be documented, I think the use of the word ‘reverse’ works for me, thinking lateral rather than literal.

Thanks for the discussion – my response was only because I interpreted you post as saying you don’t believe that gravity itself can be reversed (which of course it can’t) and I don’t think this is what the term is trying to suggest.

Again, only my thoughts, jonah

 

[Sigung86]

Teej,

It is neither meet, nor right, to show such illumination publicly! :ultracool :ultracool :ultracool

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

For me the reverse gravitational marriage is to use the principle of marriage of gravity but in the reverse or opposite way. With marriage of gravity we settle our weight with the strike of our weapon into the target utilising the additional effect of gravity and therefore increasing back up mass and power transference.

With reverse gravitational marriage – as I see it – we use the exact same effect of gravity to increase power transference to the target but by dropping the target onto the weapon.

In my opinion the straightening of the legs for a reverse head-butt is not reverse marriage of gravity but is back up mass. As an example in my mind for reverse marriage of gravity try the back breaker when we bring the attacker down onto our grounded and stationary knee.

I agree with ‘teej’ that reverse gravity does not exist but IMHO the term reverse gravitational marriage does not mean to reverse the effects of gravity itself, but, to use the principal of gravitational marriage but oppositely ie body to weapon not weapon to body.

My opinions only – may be wrong

jonah

Just keep in mind that reverses and opposites are two totally different things in kenpo. Your definition of reverse marriage of gravity is actually an opposite not a reverse as stated yourself. It falls under borrowed force, colliding forces, guided collision, etc. as well.

Gravity = A pulling force in a downward direction. Now reverse that statement. A pushing force in an upward direction. Hense straighening up from a lower position to power an upward blow is reverse marriage of gravity. Just as dropping from a higher position to power a downward blow is marriage of gravity. Both are simply back up mass on the vertical instead of horizontal planes. Good boxers use reverse marriage of gravity all the time by powering uppercuts with upward thrusts from the legs.

Respectfully,
James

 

[teej]

Gravity = A pulling force in a downward direction. Now reverse that statement. A pushing force in an upward direction.

Very true. "Gravity" is the pulling force adding to the back up mass. Thus the power principle becomes Gravitational Marriage.


Now the second part about the pushing force. What is the pushing force? What is being added to this "pushing force"? What is adding to the back up mass? Nothing. It is the same as shifting your weight from a neutral bow to a forward bow. The weight transfer behind the strike becomes back up mass. As nothing is adding to the weight transfering upward, it becomes purely back up mass.

I agree that boxers have strong uppercuts, but thrusting their legs upward is purely Back up mass just as thrusting your legs and body weight forward into a forward bow is back up mass.

Now I am refering to the term being used in the sense of "power principles". Now if someone is reversing something in their minds in the way they think of gravitational marriage that is a different story. But as far as power principles go, if you thrust your legs upward causing your body weight to move upward, the power principle is plain Back Up Mass.

Teej

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Very true. "Gravity" is the pulling force adding to the back up mass. Thus the power principle becomes Gravitational Marriage.


Now the second part about the pushing force. What is the pushing force? What is being added to this "pushing force"? What is adding to the back up mass? Nothing. It is the same as shifting your weight from a neutral bow to a forward bow. The weight transfer behind the strike becomes back up mass. As nothing is adding to the weight transfering upward, it becomes purely back up mass.

I agree that boxers have strong uppercuts, but thrusting their legs upward is purely Back up mass just as thrusting your legs and body weight forward into a forward bow is back up mass.

Now I am refering to the term being used in the sense of "power principles". Now if someone is reversing something in their minds in the way they think of gravitational marriage that is a different story. But as far as power principles go, if you thrust your legs upward causing your body weight to move upward, the power principle is plain Back Up Mass.

Teej

You are aware that you're saying exactly the same thing that I am saying and that my post was agreeing with one of your previous posts right?

Gravity = A pulling force in a downward direction. Now reverse that statement. A pushing force in an upward direction. Hense straighening up from a lower position to power an upward blow is reverse marriage of gravity. Just as dropping from a higher position to power a downward blow is marriage of gravity. Both are simply back up mass on the vertical instead of horizontal planes. Good boxers use reverse marriage of gravity all the time by powering uppercuts with upward thrusts from the legs.

In other words Marriage of gravity and its reverse have different terminology than the 'traditional' Back Up Mass because of the difference in launching methods. Gravitational Marriage = the earth launches us towards itself. Reverse that statement = We launch ourselves away from the earth. But the principle remains the same, Back Up Mass, there never is anything 'added to it'. Gravity doesn't ADD anything according to the laws of physics. Gravity is only providing the acceleration in a direction we have limited means to accelerate towards under our own power. In laymen's terms we can't launch downward because there is no solid structure overhead to launch off of. The force principle is always the mass of the object multiplied by it's acceleration. If the acceleration comes from gravitational or physiological means it is still acceleration. From a physics standpoint the method of how the acceleration is achieved is irrelevant. From a physics standpoint ALL of the Power Principles are simply Back Up Mass with a different method of generating the acceleration. But like I said we're saying the same thing different ways.

Respectfully,
James

 

[Rich_Hale]

All I see James trying to do is tell the world what reverse marriage of gravity means to him, not what Mr. Paker considered it to be.

So until we decide to remane the art James Hawkins Kenpo Karate , I'll stick with my years of personal instruction and interaction with Mr. Parker for this type of information.

 

[KENPOJOE]

What is your understanding of it, an example of application, and/or a technique in which it is used. Came up in class the other day, and I couldn't help but be curious,.

I'm too verklempt; tualk amongst yourselves.

Hi Folks!
In regards to the question on reverse marrige of gravity, the foundation of that particular principle/term is found in the saying "For every move, theory,concept, principle and definition there is an opposite and a reverse.". The three major "power principles" are Back Up Mass, Marrige Of Gravity, and Rotational Torque. Each particular principle has a base path of action that it moves on. Back up mass moves forward on a horizontal plane, Marrige of gravity moves downward on a vertical plane and rotational torque moves forward on a circular fashion on a given plane. The first 2 principles are linear in path of action and torque is obviously circuler.
If we follow the initial phrase then there must be reverse back up mass,reverse marrige of gravity and reverse torque. Since the question was about reverse marrige of gravity I'll focus upon that term.
Mr. Parker defined marrige of gravity (M.O.G.) or Gravitational Marrige (G.M.) as the unification of a kenpoist's body of weight,moving harmoniously downward on a vertical plane with the assistance of the force of gravity pulling our body toward the earth. We use the natural force of gravity to aid the power of a given strike so that we can hit an opponent with "own whoel body" rather than an individual body part.
In order to properly understand reverse mog we must use the basic criteria:
direction: mog=downward reverse mog=upward
path of action: vertical
contributing factors: mog=gravity,body weight, body alignment [varies according to technique]
reverse=borrowed force,body alignment,catapulting/using the ground as a brace,rebounding [depending on the technique]
Mr. Hawkins is correct on several points, on it's basic level, it can be explained as "back-Up Mass on an upward plane" in that with proper body alignment, the natural weapon striking is backed up by the alignment of the given limb.
In regards to settling as opposed to M.O.G., the main point is that a leg and or legs must first be up in the air so that as the leg replants on the ground, the "harmonious action" with gravity occurs. As opposed to "settling" or "sinking" where both feet can remain on the ground as you lower your height zone.
In reverse MOG, being able to push off the ground in an upward vertical plane is one of the key ingredients to generate power on that given plane. Also, obtaining "borrowed force" from your opponent {either intention or unintentional] due to previous actions on your part so that your opponent moves downward on that vertical plane and you meet in a concucsive impact [another example of "opposing forces]
We do not,in fact, reverse the natural force of gravity, rather through the above mentioned actions, we simulate a temporary negation of the force of gravity and show that "what comes up must go down". As Rich Hale mentioned from his quote from the "Encyclopedia of Kenpo" that this reversing the "effect" of gravity, not gravity itself. So that we move upward to generate the power as opposed to downward as far as direction. [btw, it should be noted that the "encyclopedia " was released AFTER Mr. Parker's death and he obviously did not have final say on the released text] but again, we simulate that effect by both our and our opponent's actions and reactions.I was always taught that "scraping hoof" was the primary example of this principle. Rich will probably remember Mr. Parker asking "is not the floor nothing more than a vertical wall that we can push against to generate power?" and as Mr. Hale mentioned "encounter with danger" the concept of pushing off the ground to generate the upward vertical path of action for the back kick is actually a better example of reverse MOG.
The main point is what we are reversing the "direction of motion" that gravity causes, not the actual natural force of gravity.
Simply stated, the term is a simple was for people to understand the use of upward motion upon an opponent. People fail to realize when we are discussin these aspects , that most "old school" instructors would say "just do it" with no explanation whatsoever and leave you in the dark. At least we can explain what we do and why we do it! Not to mention there are no mystical oriental terms that we have to first translate in order to ponder the deeper significance.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

All I see James trying to do is tell the world what reverse marriage of gravity means to him, not what Mr. Paker considered it to be.

So until we decide to remane the art James Hawkins Kenpo Karate , I'll stick with my years of personal instruction and interaction with Mr. Parker for this type of information.

Actually not. I never met Mr. Parker so I can't say "He said this and therefore it's the gospel truth." I have only what I know from my own studies and what I learn in college as I work on my degrees in Biology and Physics. I also don't care who said what as men are just that not God. I don't regard any man as THE fountain of knowledge, not even MR. PARKER. If that were the case I'd be saying General Choi Hong Hi (founder of TKD, my first MA) had all the answers. I don't know what I said to warrant this personal attack from you but I'll not return the favor. I'll just simply ask that in the future you present your points with science and logic instead of "Mr. Parker (a human being not a GOD) said it, it must be true" or "The art isn't James Hawkins Kenpo Karate." Mr. Hale I am deeply hurt and disappointed at this as I didn't perceive you to be this type of individual from the reputation told to me about you. I guess I may have been mistaken, but I salute you none the less.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Thank you for adding some more details to what I was saying Mr. Rebelo. Also thank you for adding some of Mr. Parker's ideas and comments as well to support the information. I don't have the luxury of adding any of Mr. Parker's sayings to my comentary having never met the man but having his commentary carries a "certain weight" in the minds of many. As always you've been of great service Mr. Rebelo. Now about that telethon........LOL.

Respectfully,
James

 

[KENPOJOE]

Actually not. I never met Mr. Parker so I can't say "He said this and therefore it's the gospel truth." I have only what I know from my own studies and what I learn in college as I work on my degrees in Biology and Physics. I also don't care who said what as men are just that not God. I don't regard any man as THE fountain of knowledge, not even MR. PARKER. If that were the case I'd be saying General Choi Hong Hi (founder of TKD, my first MA) had all the answers. I don't know what I said to warrant this personal attack from you but I'll not return the favor. Salute just the same Mr. Hale but I am deeply hurt and disappointed at this as I didn't perceive you to be this type of individual from the reputation passed to me about you. Again Salute:asian:

Congrats,James!
You figured out exactly what Mr. Parker did! For as much as he thought he knew, he was always intelligent enough to realize how little he knew! Because of that, He was always willing to learn more and to grow as a person first and a martial artist second. He was always asking people for their opinion [like yours] and he would use their oopinions as the catalyist for his own creative thought processes. That's why he encouraged people [like yourself] to not blindly acceapt his teachings as gospel, but to question his opinion as well as substanciate their own points of contention. through this "brain storming" he would get valuble insights and incorporate those individuals ideas into the system! such was the open-minded ness of this man but also his humility at always acknowledging how little he knew and eager he always was to learn!
Keep asking and answering!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Thanks again Mr. Rebelo. All I can do is question everything as that's the only way to ensure that I don't stop learning. That's what they teach at the university I attend: Question everything and everyone until you can prove things on your own instead of based on what the professor/teacher told you.

On another note I noticed a pattern where when someone who studied with Mr. Parker has a difference of opinion with someone who did not the crutch is often "Well I have extensive experience with Mr. Parker so I know what I'm talking about and you don't." Well that gets old as that doesn't explain anything to anyone it's just a crutch phrase. Since the "I knew Mr. Parker card" keeps getting dropped here's my own "Mr. Parker said so card".

Sayings of Mr. Parker from The Zen of Kenpo

A martial artist who boasts of being IN the art longer than another forgets that the person being accused may have been AT the art longer than he. - Page 10

Those who criticize are usually covering up their own incompetence. - Page 26

When you criticize, make sure you suggest options to remedy the problem. - Page 26

When one knows his subject, fear of verbally answering is not a problem. - Page 38

Unsubstantiated judgment of others can lead to paths of sorrow. - Page 54

Jerks are those who displau qualities of insecurity. - Page 54

It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all. - Page 57

Scrutinize, analyze, realize, revides, devise. - Page 62

Use logic and common sense at all times. - Page 66

Mass takes in the entire body, and not just a portion of it. - Page 70

Mass is enhanced by body momentum. - Page 70

To get the most from mass, combine it with directional harmony. - Page 70

When a mind is too rigid or formal, it has a tendency to be less receptive. - Page 84

Seperating your direction can also mean seperating you power. - Page 92

All men, no matter who they are or how much they know, can share their knowledge with others. - Page 108

Don't be a traditional bigot who accepts nothing other than what he has been brainwashed to believe. - Page 121

Those who stick to tradition can only lead themselves to contradiction. - Page 121

A "winner" compliments others. A "loser" condemns. - Page 132

A "winner" will say, "there must be better way to do it." A "loser" will say, "be satisfied with the way things are." - Page 133

Food for thought.
Respectfully,
James

P.S. Mr. Rebelo you are one of the few who spent time with Mr. Parker who doesn't try to pull the "well I knew Mr. Parker so there" card when someone has a different opinion. You always give painstaking (and sometimes overwhelming) detail and examples to express your points. Thank you for spending so much time on the net and telephone sharing knowledge and memories with me. It is appreciated more than I could probably ever express. -- James

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Mr. Hawkins:

I enjoy your posts, as well as those by Mr. Hale. You mentioned in one of them that you would not respond to his apparent attack with one of your own. This comment is followed by several posts, leveling poorly veiled passive-aggressive barbs at Mr. Hales underlying position and presentation. Without defending his loss of decorum, I would also like to encourage you to regain your own.

Increasingly, the better minds in kenpo aim at each other, creating derisive and divisive atmospheres between practitioners. I would like to invite interested parties to join in our collective hobby with the knowledge that they'll find themselves in an honorable arena, populated by scholarly martial gentry. I am not without fault, and am (more frequently than I care to admit) among the first to drop courtesy...particularly when my blood sugar is low.

Nevertheless, I think some higher grounds are worth aiming for. Perhaps we can all help each other up to the next level, so that "kenpo" becomes synonymous with minds working and growing together. I know I can use the help.

Best Regards,

Dave