Revenge? As a Martial Artist?

[rmcrobertson]

1. "The essence of the law is that the sweets of private vengeance shall be denied."---Sinclair Lewis

2. While one was pleased to see that folks thought revenge was silly, as well as outside the bounds of the ideals of martial arts (though often parts of our history), the drift of this thread into associating revenge with sexual jealousy and femininity beautifully illustrates one of the fundamental weirdnesses that makes revenge thinkable.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think history is full of Revenge stories regarding Martial Artists...

Look at the Tale of the 47 Samurai as an example...

:idunno:

 

[Adept]

I think history is full of Revenge stories regarding Martial Artists...

Look at the Tale of the 47 Samurai as an example...

:idunno:

Absolutely. Personally, I feel that, like anything, revenge has its time and place. Some would call it revenge, some would call it justice, some would call it punishment.

 

[Flamebearer]

Revenge? No.

Making sure that the offender is dealt with by the local judicial/police system (ex: calling police)? Yes.

"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay."
If not here on earth, then on judgement day. It's called that for a reason.

-Flamebearer

 

[Adept]

Revenge? No.

Making sure that the offender is dealt with by the local judicial/police system (ex: calling police)? Yes.

But what if the official channels do not deliver justice?

Say your sister is repeatedly beaten by her abusive spouse. Charges have been laid, and there is no question as to his guilt, and he shows no genuine remorse. But your sister drops the charges, for whatever reason.

Is 'revenge' acceptable then? We dont have to call it revenge even. What about application of justice or punishment, even if through unofficial means?

 

[loki09789]

I think history is full of Revenge stories regarding Martial Artists...

Look at the Tale of the 47 Samurai as an example...

:idunno:

Most people view the tale of the 47 Samurai in the same way that we view "A Message for Garcia" as a tale of the 'ultimate act of loyalty/integrity not so much as a 'revenge tale.'

The 47 Samurai 'finished the mission' even when they had no earthly ties to any obligations to do so: No Lord, no sworn oath, no legitimate/socially acceptable recognition to act...but they did it because the importance of the keeping their word was so much more important than all those things....

Personally, I think it is a noble dramatization, but much like the "Charge of the Light Brigage" not necessarily meant to be views as anything more than an inspirational theme meant to demonstrate the importance of ONE character trait in Heroes, but does not attempt to reconcile how to balance a list of Character traits.

Revenge tales that usually are enjoyed/popularized in martial arts/action genre go as follows:

1. Someone kills/molests/destroys someone or something that the hero loves (in his imperfect - use to neglect/take if for granted way) who realizes that now that it is gone it was really precious to him/her.

2. Hero decides to take 'revenge' for the lose of said precious thing.

3. In the process of 'seeking revenge' the journey teaches the hero that revenge won't reward him/heal him/take away his lose BUT he has learned that he can do this 'last thing' to show how precious that person/thing was to him before he lives his future life differently (as well as eliminating a threat to his present and future life).

4. At the moment of truth it goes one of two ways:

A. He cleanly slays the target of his revenge and moves on NEVER to make those mistakes again.

B. He does not kill because he realizes the act would make him no better than the 'bad guy.' (which invariably leads to the 'act of God' death by circumstance - falling on a spear, off cliff, trampled by horses....).

For the most part, 'revenge tales' are either 'moral lessons tales' or 'cathartic release' stories that let us satisfy the revenge motive in a vicarious way.

 

[loki09789]

But what if the official channels do not deliver justice?

Say your sister is repeatedly beaten by her abusive spouse. Charges have been laid, and there is no question as to his guilt, and he shows no genuine remorse. But your sister drops the charges, for whatever reason.

Is 'revenge' acceptable then? We dont have to call it revenge even. What about application of justice or punishment, even if through unofficial means?

In the eyes of society/law, your sister is personally vested. You are not vested and if you were to act 'on your sister's behalf' and take revenge on the abuser...you will be in the wrong (as well as not addressing the real long term beneficial act of confronting your sister about how she is contributing to the cycle of violence).

What happens when your sister, freed from this abuser, ends up with another person of the same cut? Did eliminating that one person really help? Would it have been better to 'tough love/intervention' with your sister so that she can change her choices in men?

This is all moot anyway because most spousal abuse laws are charges from the state NOT the abused as long as there is sufficient evidence of abuse (bruises, verbal admission....).

 

[loki09789]

Absolutely. Personally, I feel that, like anything, revenge has its time and place. Some would call it revenge, some would call it justice, some would call it punishment.

Revenge is descriptive of the motive behind the action, calling it 'justice' changes the motive from 'revenge' to 'justice'....

Revenge/Vendetta/Vengeance....all terms that describe PERSONAL SATISFACTION for a percieved wrong that you feel gives you the right to act violently against to doer.

Taken to a smaller scale, is the retaliation to a personal foul in sports 'right?' Not according to the rules of the game because both the initiator and the responder are elligible for penalties.

In either case, 'revenge' acts usually lead to such consequences as loss of resources (manpower, time, distance...) that force the rest of your 'team/community' to carry a heavier portion of the load because of your personal act...

Revenge is selfish.

 

[clapping_tiger]

Revenge is an action you would take after whatever incident happened. By law, if you took revenge, you become the criminal. So for something petty like someone vandalizing my property or something like that. Why bother, there is too much to lose on your end. File a report and hope the law takes action. If someone is hurting your sister as stated above. I think society would not have a problem with it, but the legal system would. Here too, you would be the one going to jail. And your sisters abuser would still be out and take his revenge out on your sister while you sit in jail. If someone hurt my wife or children, that is a touchy issue. I would hope that the justice system would work, but if it didn't.............I guess you never know what you would really do. But my heart tells me I would probably beat the person pretty bad.

As far as being a martial artist, I train to defend myself. If you go out seeking revenge, you are not really defending yourself anymore are you?

 

[MichiganTKD]

If I had a sister who was raped, and she chose not to pursue charges, revenge is a moot point because she made the conscious decision not to expect revenge or social justice. I cannot pursue what she obviously does not want.

However, if my wife or a member of my immediate family were killed, and they no longer have any say in the matter (dead people cannot defend themselves), I believe I have an obligation to avenge that wrong. Only if they are murdered, mind you. The taking of a human life demands justice, whether it be social or personal. If my wife were murdered, and I did not pursue personal justice, I couldn't look myself in the mirror every day.

The Japanese have a word, whose name escapes me, for the sense of obligation you have in these situations, whether it be repaying a favor or avenging a murder. Western justice does not recognize this because we don't want to condone vigilantism. However, I believe that obligation will follow you to the end of your days until you repay it.

And it doesn't matter whether avenging that murder results in your death or imprisonment. Even if you go to prison, you fulfilled your obligation.

 

[Bod]

Revenge used to be the system of justice. Then the weak, annoyed at getting less justice than the strong asked for kings or judges, strong people who they could 'sue' for justice. Pretty soon personal revenge went out of fashion, because it caused a cycle of revenge, and was a pain for the whole of society.

Also, revenge rarely brings a feeling of deep satisfaction, quite the contrary.

If I was to consider taking revenge I would weigh up how much good would be caused, and how much evil would be caused by me taking that revenge. I might still take revenge, but I would accept that I was doing a bad thing, and I would accept the consequences.

 

[Cryozombie]

Revenge/Vendetta/Vengeance....all terms that describe PERSONAL SATISFACTION for a percieved wrong that you feel gives you the right to act violently against to doer.

Revenge does NOT require violence.

It often is Selfish.

But how does one obtain "justice" for a wrong against them?

Lets look at an example.

You work for a company, work hard, do your job, and support your family.
Your Supervisor does somthing bad, and his supervisor Calls him to task... He blames you, and his supervisor has you terminated, and wont even listen to your appeal. You did nothing wrong, and he has jepordized the well being of you and your family to selfishly protect himself.

No one is there to give you justice for his lies. The courts certainly are not. The company isn't.

So what if you knew that Supervisor was cheating on his wife? Would you call? Tell her? After all, he Lied about you, and you are telling the truth about him... both situations he brought about himself.

Do you Cause him a bit of hardship, the way he caused you hardship?

Or do you say "Shucks, he's a bad man, honey, but, well, there's nothing we can do about it..."

Im not looking for anyone to answer this here... but I think you should look inside yourself and ask what you would REALLY do faced with that situation.

 

[loki09789]

Revenge does NOT require violence.

It often is Selfish.

But how does one obtain "justice" for a wrong against them?

Lets look at an example.

You work for a company, work hard, do your job, and support your family.
Your Supervisor does somthing bad, and his supervisor Calls him to task... He blames you, and his supervisor has you terminated, and wont even listen to your appeal. You did nothing wrong, and he has jepordized the well being of you and your family to selfishly protect himself.

No one is there to give you justice for his lies. The courts certainly are not. The company isn't.

So what if you knew that Supervisor was cheating on his wife? Would you call? Tell her? After all, he Lied about you, and you are telling the truth about him... both situations he brought about himself.

Do you Cause him a bit of hardship, the way he caused you hardship?

Or do you say "Shucks, he's a bad man, honey, but, well, there's nothing we can do about it..."

Im not looking for anyone to answer this here... but I think you should look inside yourself and ask what you would REALLY do faced with that situation.

Revenge is always selfish. If, in your analogy, you are taken out of work, your first and foremost concern should be with regaining gainful employment to take care of that family NOT spending manhours, energy and time away from family to get vengeance (not justice) for your unjust treatment.

How do you know that the 'courts' won't help unless you actually take the time to go through the legal channels?

In your analogy, the man didn't even pursue the legal/proper channels for consultation.

What would be appropriate "non violent" revenge in this case? What if it lands you in court getting sued or charged for your actions in the name of 'justice' (revenge)? Who has contributed to the jeopardy of your family then?

Vengeance is tribal level, gang level of justified motive for action/violence/retaliation. As martial artists/civilized people, I thought the idea was to 'evolve' beyond that level of acceptable motive.

If vengeance was a 'good' motive, why don't we hear about it in the international community as justification for responses to terrorism?

 

[FearlessFreep]

We want justice for those whom injure us
and mercy from those we injure

 

[Fightback2]

An eye for an eye will eventually leave the whole world blind. I'm a firm believer in what goes around comes around - without my help. The wrong-doer will end up "paying" for his or her crimes, maybe not immediately but it will happen.

This could be a Pollyanna way of looking at life but it works for me. Revenge is an ugly thing and you could end up being more in trouble than the person who started things in the first place.

Of course, there comes a point in time when turning the other cheek turns into enough is enough and someone has to act.

Have I talked in a tight enough circle?

 

[Adept]

An eye for an eye will eventually leave the whole world blind.

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

 

[FearlessFreep]

"I see" said the blind man, who could not see at all, as he took out his hammer and saw

 

[DarrenJew]

Is revenge an honorable trait? "One should battle without anger." "To learn how to fight is to learn how not to fight."

If you fight through your emotions you will loose.

Sun Tzu once said:
"If it is not advantageous, do not move. If objectives cannot be attained, do not employ the army. Unless endangered do not engage in warfare. the ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger. The general cannot engage in battle because of personal frustration. When it is advantageous, move; when not advantageous, stop. Anger can revert to happiness, annoyance can revert to joy, but a vanquished state cannot be revived, the dead cannot be brought back to life."

 

[FearlessFreep]

"But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger" - James 1:19

 

[Corporal Hicks]

But what if the official channels do not deliver justice?

Say your sister is repeatedly beaten by her abusive spouse. Charges have been laid, and there is no question as to his guilt, and he shows no genuine remorse. But your sister drops the charges, for whatever reason.

Is 'revenge' acceptable then? We dont have to call it revenge even. What about application of justice or punishment, even if through unofficial means?

I Understand what you mean here, but sometimes the police/government are powerless to act, your sister drops the charges. Its not your place to take revenge, its your place to help your sister out of the situation that she's in, give her contact numbers and people that can help her. You will solve nothing if you go and beat up her spouse, chances are he will be worse to her and force her to keep it under wraps even more so!

As for the Criminal Justice System, the way it is now days it should be called the Criminal's Justice System!