Revenge? As a Martial Artist?

[Cryozombie]

I believe in a certain amount of revenge.

The how and why are very important questions... someone does somthing stupid, small simple, etc... it doesnt warrant revenge in my mind.

Someone does somthing willfully and selfishly, then of course I consider retailation.

I also dont believe that revenge needs to be a physical attack to get even.

So many devious, subltle things that one can do. And then when the time is right and the person STILL doesnt know what happened, you let them know in some small way it was you. Because anonymous revenge is pretty empty, and it doesnt teach them anything.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Well just to add my own story since Sin was talking about the unfortunate incident with the girl he was with. I happened to find out a friend that I have trusted for years(about 5/6 years) has actually spent alot of the last year trying to get with (for lack of a better word) my girlfriend. That means all that time they spent together alone in the dark room in photography kind of makes me think.....see what Im getting at. My girlfriend only told me after some serious conversations and she didnt think it was important. Still going to the revenge subject, for a week I was seriously plotting to do anything, something to get back at him for the amount of worry on my mind and the hurt I had felt but something got in the way. Me being a Martial Artist got in the way. Even though I really wanted to do something I knew it would go against my art and me being an adult, so I would take it like a man and I hopefully could say I did. That was only two weeks ago.

The only thing lost here, is my trust in him, which he will never get back and I think that is revenge or justice if you like enough. Am I wrong though not to forgive and forget in time?

 

[MA-Caver]

Just like what I said about revenge... it's not worth it.
Sin, I disagree with you about what happened to you ex as being poetic justice. None of those things were influenced by you and your satisfaction at it is IMO, just wrong. Especially since she was raped while pregnant with a baby she wasn't ready for or probably even wanted. This is tragic and if you ever DID love her you'd help her out.
Being angry and bitter because she cheated is understandable but to wish that kind of ill on someone or to hold a self-righteous type of satisfaction that it did happen is morally wrong (IMO).
I know the love you had, I've had it before... only to find that she didn't have it as I did. Hurt? Yeah. Love is never easy and it's often times not what we want it to be. But if we can live with the love that we DO get then it should be enough...it ought to be enough.
That she was cheated on in turn is probably Karma. But the other stuff that happened... no. That was just terrible luck not revenge or even justice.
You love her? Find her and help her. Don't have to try and patch it up just help her. That would be a Martialist thing to do.

We train our children for war? Ok I can buy that. What war are you talking about? All of my life my MA training has been to fight the war within. To fight for the control I need when I am confronted by an antagonist and have the control to fight them... physically and verbally. There's lots of kind of war. War of self confidence, overcoming fear(s), self control, self awareness, self respect and so on.
I'm not talking about "Battle of the Bulge" type boom-boom battles, but quiet internal ones ... these wars go on all the time within us and are imperceptible at best. Only we know they're happening. As a result we grow.

Revenge should never be part of a martialist's arsenal or attitude.

 

[Adept]

She told me that the guy she cheated on me with got her pregnat, cheated on her, dumped her, and about 3 weeks later two guys on the collages football team raped her. I must say all that is horrible. But what goes around comes around 10 times fold.

Poetic Justice......and I didn't cause one bad thing to happen to her.

I agree with Loki. This is illogical and mean-spirited.

 

[Adept]

Revenge, IMHO, has its time and place.

 

[mj_lover]

sin, i know what you feel, i had something similar happen, only she didn't have anything happen to her, she is happy, so i will leave her alone, although, i want to do some nasty things to the other guy. i won't. The best "revenge" is to smile and keep going with life, help her out (i would, even though she hurt me), be the better person.

 

[sojobow]

Well, I sat and knitted some more on an intricate entrelac piece I have been working on for almost two years while I contemplated your post. How on earth did you know I knitted? :idunno:

If the sole purpose of martial arts is war, why on earth are we teaching American children today to go to war? Adults over 35? Why is it available to the general public at all? Why are MAs not exclusive to military training alone? The martial arts became perfected in the temples by men who never intended to go to war, rather defend with their lives the importance of spirituality and sacred studies which include tenets which most are not able to espouse............
G

You present quite a few questions. But, I think, and could be wrong, that your questions were really your attempt to answer. I think you already know the answers to these questions prior to asking them. But, if I'm incorrect, please chose 2 or 3 and I will be most happy to discuss them with you.

I do see on statement that would be very interesting to discuss:

"The martial arts became perfected in the temples by men who never intended to go to war, rather defend with their lives the importance of spirituality and sacred studies which include tenets which most are not able to espouse..

I think the men of the temples perfected their war arts for the purpose going to war, when required of them. Not only to go to war, but to be successfull in the confrontations. Likened unto todays ideals of peace brought about by strength personified. When others know that your retribution and recompense will result in finality, chances are, you will walk in peace (and definately when it is known that you will not hesitate to use it). Pure martial arts is actually military arts.

Good questions though. I'll ponder them. Impressed with your styles Lady Sulsa.

 

[shesulsa]

You present quite a few questions. But, I think, and could be wrong, that your questions were really your attempt to answer. I think you already know the answers to these questions prior to asking them. But, if I'm incorrect, please chose 2 or 3 and I will be most happy to discuss them with you.

Thanks, sojobow; although I have been known to engage in heated debate, I do not care to brow-beat, rather ask questions that may or may not provoke consideration to make my point. It would be improper for me to consistently state my opinion as "the fact, Jack" all of the time no matter how strongly I feel. When you return, should you like to pick one or two of the questions I put to you, please post to the thread again and we can expound on the topic together.

I do see on statement that would be very interesting to discuss:

"The martial arts became perfected in the temples by men who never intended to go to war, rather defend with their lives the importance of spirituality and sacred studies which include tenets which most are not able to espouse..

I think the men of the temples perfected their war arts for the purpose going to war, when required of them. Not only to go to war, but to be successfull in the confrontations.

Martial arts evolved on different fronts in different ways in different countries, really. But the men who perfected them are, I believe, monks. We could create a separate thread on this if it hasn't already been delved into. This will be extremely difficult as different styles have various origins and some debatable by nature of the destruction of historical documents recording lineage by overthrowing dynasties. But I wonder if we could discuss the origins and evolvement of martial arts on varied fronts without becoming specific as to lineage per se of each and every art form.

Likened unto todays ideals of peace brought about by strength personified. When others know that your retribution and recompense will result in finality, chances are, you will walk in peace (and definately when it is known that you will not hesitate to use it).

See, I believe when YOU know your retribution and recompense will result in finality, it commands you to understand the time and place for retribution. Through the advancement of rank, one (hopefully) is enlightened as to the values of patience, time, balance and conservation of energy. Like Flatlander, I came to martial arts to have these skills and to learn to avoid and abate violence. That I walk in calm confidence is a grand protection in and of itself. I do not seek victimization - if I am "done wrong" time eventually takes care of that. Simple decisions make the difference as to any payment that person may or may not owe. Oftentimes little action is truly required and opportunity presents itself.

Pure martial arts is actually military arts.

I suppose this depends upon one's perspective.

Good questions though. I'll ponder them. Impressed with your styles Lady Sulsa.

Thank you for the compliment, and I appreciate the response.

Peace

 

[Sin]

I have already lead the horse to water, but i can not make it drink.

She has made her bed and now she has to sleep in it. What has happened to her was not my fault.

I can not protect her

 

[loki09789]

I have already lead the horse to water, but i can not make it drink.

She has made her bed and now she has to sleep in it. What has happened to her was not my fault.

I can not protect her

And you don't have to assume that her personal tragedies are directly linked to your suffering at her hands.... That is the link that I was commenting on, not whether you 'made' it happen.

 

[Sin]

i don't belive that the direct act of her hurting me affects karma in anyway.

i belive that she is putting herself in situations in witch bad things can happen. i have told her many times to stay away from certian types. but she will not listen. I have done all i can.

i do not belive in destiny.......we all make our own. And she is responsible for her life, just like everyone else is responsible for there own

 

[loki09789]

i don't belive that the direct act of her hurting me affects karma in anyway...


i do not belive in destiny.......we all make our own. And she is responsible for her life, just like everyone else is responsible for there own

"Karma" is "Destiny" actually....

 

[An Eternal Student]

Personally, I dont believe revenge is wrong.But it all depends on the how and why.Most people when they feel the need for vengeance, are bitter or angry or filled with hate.They wish to take out these emotions on ther person who caused them.They take satsifaction in making the other person suffer, and then afterwards they feel hollow and unfufilled.Thats when vengeance is wrong.
Revenge is something you do because you have to.Its when someone has done something that you cant simpy ignore or let pass.Some act that was done that they cannot be allowed get away with.You make them pay for their act, but you dont do it out of a desire to make them suffer.You do it as if its your duty, and it must be done.You must try to act honourable while you do it, and control your thoughts and feelings.

 

[Sin]

Personally, I dont believe revenge is wrong.But it all depends on the how and why.Most people when they feel the need for vengeance, are bitter or angry or filled with hate.They wish to take out these emotions on ther person who caused them.They take satsifaction in making the other person suffer, and then afterwards they feel hollow and unfufilled.Thats when vengeance is wrong.
Revenge is something you do because you have to.Its when someone has done something that you cant simpy ignore or let pass.Some act that was done that they cannot be allowed get away with.You make them pay for their act, but you dont do it out of a desire to make them suffer.You do it as if its your duty, and it must be done.You must try to act honourable while you do it, and control your thoughts and feelings.

I.E.: The Punisher

i know if my whole family was killed I would be in the same way

agree with student 100%.....revenge when its in the heat of he moment out of hate is wrong. But to do good in the world, all wrong doings should be punished in one way or another. Either by the law or your own hands. Sometimes something just has to be done
:asian:

 

[An Eternal Student]

Although the Punisher does seem to love his work.

 

[Sin]

:mp5:

True

 

[loki09789]

revenge

n : action taken in return for an injury or offense [syn: retaliation] v : take revenge for a perceived wrong; "He wants to avenge the murder of his brother" [syn: avenge, retaliate]

Given the general ethos of martial artists expressed here ("That isn't why I train" type of responses in the past), the current society that we live in (first world, Judicial system which would define things like vengeance motivated acts as 'premeditate'...) and such, is 'revenge' an acceptable motive to do anything? I don't care if it is 'little' revenge acts that don't fall under violence or physical force or not. Is it really 'okay' to 'get back' at someone simply out of a desire to retaliate?

Would it be better to act based on a motive like justice or a desire to stop that person from finding another victim, remove the threat from society (which can be just as confused as 'vengeance') or some motive other than a personal desire to cause harm to someone else?

I thought the idea of 'martial arts' is to develop 'noble warriors' that act because of a set of moral standards NOT not 'petty vendettists' that are reactionary and seeking 'payback.'

Part of the reason that revenge plays/movies/stories are so well liked is because they allow us to live out in a cathartic way what we all feel but believe to be wrong.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

revenge

I thought the idea of 'martial arts' is to develop 'noble warriors' that act because of a set of moral standards NOT not 'petty vendettists' that are reactionary and seeking 'payback.'

.

I like that! Nice post, I think your right!

Regards

 

[shesulsa]

revenge

n : action taken in return for an injury or offense [syn: retaliation] v : take revenge for a perceived wrong; "He wants to avenge the murder of his brother" [syn: avenge, retaliate]

Given the general ethos of martial artists expressed here ("That isn't why I train" type of responses in the past), the current society that we live in (first world, Judicial system which would define things like vengeance motivated acts as 'premeditate'...) and such, is 'revenge' an acceptable motive to do anything? I don't care if it is 'little' revenge acts that don't fall under violence or physical force or not. Is it really 'okay' to 'get back' at someone simply out of a desire to retaliate?

Would it be better to act based on a motive like justice or a desire to stop that person from finding another victim, remove the threat from society (which can be just as confused as 'vengeance') or some motive other than a personal desire to cause harm to someone else?

I thought the idea of 'martial arts' is to develop 'noble warriors' that act because of a set of moral standards NOT not 'petty vendettists' that are reactionary and seeking 'payback.'

Part of the reason that revenge plays/movies/stories are so well liked is because they allow us to live out in a cathartic way what we all feel but believe to be wrong.

So very well put. This is why we have a code of ethics ... a creed ... a promise, true?

 

[SMP]

For me I would never try to "revenge" - I would "strtegicaly plan"

I think martial arts has helped me realise when action is necessary or unnecessary.