Retail Outlets that do not allow Concealed Weapons

[Lisa]

Which raises the question: If you took both into a theater, and they suspected you of sneaking "something" in, which would you admit to?


"No sir, that's not a box of milk-duds, that's my gun!"

Do-oh!

I just carry a big purse for my milk duds

On the question of them questioning you. What right do they really have to come up and ask you "what's in your jacket?" Isn't it only the security guards that can do that?

 

[thardey]

I just carry a big purse for my milk duds

On the question of them questioning you. What right do they really have to come up and ask you "what's in your jacket?" Isn't it only the security guards that can do that?

What special authority do security guards have that regular employees don't?

You could always say "I'm glad to see you're alert! What's your name?" As though you were doing some sort of "security check". Maybe pretend to record it into your cell phone like it was a memo-recorder.

Confidence is the best camouflage.

Edited to add:
Or I could carry a purse, but that would look funny.
No guy wants to have to dig through an unknown purse.

 

[Carol]

Its legal for anyone to ask "What's in YOUR jacket?" (Sorry, couldn't resist)

The legal question isn't in the asking, it's in the answering.

Any mall employee can legally ask me what is in my purse.

I can legally tell them to bugger off and leave me alone.

They can legally ask me to leave the premises.

I can choose to comply, or not comply.

If I comply, me and my purse (and my business) goes elsewhere.

If I don't comply, I risk minor trespassing charges.

 

[Lisa]

Its legal for anyone to ask "What's in YOUR jacket?" (Sorry, couldn't resist)

The legal question isn't in the asking, it's in the answering.

Any mall employee can legally ask me what is in my purse.

I can legally tell them to bugger off and leave me alone.

They can legally ask me to leave the premises.

I can choose to comply, or not comply.

If I comply, me and my purse (and my business) goes elsewhere.

If I don't comply, I risk minor trespassing charges.

But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?

 

[thardey]

But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?

Accusing you of what? You're not breaking a law.

If they strip-searched you, on the other hand . . .

 

[jks9199]

Trolley Square in Salt Lake City is posted as "no weapons," obviously it did nothing to deter the shooter, what did deter the situation was an off-duty cop who failed to follow the posted signs and was carrying concealed.

Also, depending on which state you are in those signs may or may not actually have any weight of law behind them.

Lamont

Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.

the laws vary from state to state, but a retailer generally can't prosecute weapons charges for a customer that carries on their premises. However, give that it is private property, they can ask a person to leave.

How would they know who to ask? They would have to know who is carrying...and with a properly holstered sidearm, that is impossible to tell.

Concealed means n one should know you have it...IMO, these rules are likely inspired by people that got spooked by sloppy carry habits.

Unless it is a place specifically forbidden on the state's or Federal govt's books( Federal property, military installation, bank, post office, depending on the state, maybe police stations, depending on the state, bars, and so on), they haven't a legal leg to stand on. They can ask you to leave( assuming they are patting you down for weapons and see one, which is a whole nother legal can of worms, such as in several cases in my past where searching for my CCW piece would have been tantamount to indecent assault)), and lose a customer, perhaps several more as a result, but that's about it.

It's not complicated at all. Malls and shopping centers (and amusement parks and lots of other "public places") are private property, open to the public for a particular purpose. In the case of the shopping center, that's to patronize the various shops and businesses. As such, they can set the rules for those entering the property, and can prohibit carrying concealed weapons, or almost any thing else they want. So, were you to be discovered carrying a concealed weapon, with a permit, you're committing trespass; to paraphrase a judge's explanation of how shoplifting could be pled down to trespass, you've violated the close (the bounds of the property) by entering the property without complying with their rules (like no guns or not stealing).

Of course, your mileage may vary in different states. But any property owner can be MORE restrictive on their property than the state's laws, for almost any activity.

 

[Carol]

But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?

Anyone can sue anybody for anything. Whether the lawsuit has merit, or can be heard by a court of law is another story.

The right to carry in the U.S. is a right to carry. Unlike race, gender, handicap status, etc, the attribute of legally carrying a sidearm does not put the carrier in to a protected class under civil rights law.

In most cases, it is legal to discriminate against CCW holders, much like it is generally legal to discriminate against smokers or bikers or people wearing jeans or any other assorted non-protected attributes.

If a store emploee were to say "I suspect you are carrying so I am going to ask you to leave," that doesn't meet the legal definition of a criminally false accusation, because the store employee isn't accusing someone of breaking the law. They are simply assuming that someone is violating store policy and taking non-litigious action against that person.

There are many areas of law where....being a jerk is legal, making no sense is legal, and bad business is legal. Just because something is legal doesn't mean that something is necessarily advisable.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.

This is the real reason I have never gotten used to carrying since I got a carry firearm and a CPL from the state of Michigan. At worked the state it is a cause for being let go to have a weapon. Also going to a place that makes 50% of its' income from liquor is also a place not allowed by the state. So I choose to go places of better establishment to limit the opportunities.

 

[jks9199]

But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?

Accusing you of what? You're not breaking a law.

If they strip-searched you, on the other hand . . .

Exactly...

Though an argument for slander can be made if they yelled "STOP THIEF" or something along those lines in a way that everyone can hear.

However, before you get to quick to say "no, what are you gonna do about it?!"... most states have laws that enable a merchant or their agent (like a contract security guard) to detain people they have reasonable suspicion committed larceny or shoplifting. Usually, this is a limited detention while the police are called, but they are generally permitted to use reasonable force to detain you.

 

[thardey]

Exactly...

Though an argument for slander can be made if they yelled "STOP THIEF" or something along those lines in a way that everyone can hear.

However, before you get to quick to say "no, what are you gonna do about it?!"... most states have laws that enable a merchant or their agent (like a contract security guard) to detain people they have reasonable suspicion committed larceny or shoplifting. Usually, this is a limited detention while the police are called, but they are generally permitted to use reasonable force to detain you.

Good point,

If an employee saw an unusual bulge in my waistline, and accused me of shoplifting, I would rather just show them the gun, and head out the door.

jks, how often do you guys get calls from people who overreact to concealed pistols carried legitimately?

Do you get any of the "This guy had a gun in my store, I want you to arrest him!" type of stuff?

 

[buldog]

This is probably not going to be well received. Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession. I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool). We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed, so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress. Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes? Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search). The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone! We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.

PS. Please don't shoot me!

 

[Cruentus]

This is probably not going to be well received. Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession. I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool). We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed, so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress. Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes? Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search). The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone! We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.

PS. Please don't shoot me!

Yea... because leaving guns outside is much safer then keeping em on your person...

 

[Carol]

This is probably not going to be well received. Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession. I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool). We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed, so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress. Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes? Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search). The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone! We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.

PS. Please don't shoot me!

Well...that's pretty much my complaint.

Pulling a gun out to see if it fits in a box, hangin' in the parking lot with one's pals munching on burgers from the food court and showing off their newest "toys", carrying a sidearm in such a way that it makes a suspicious print under the clothing...that is not concealment.

Concealed means no one should know you have it.

 

[thardey]

This is probably not going to be well received. Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession. I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool). We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed, so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress. Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes? Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search). The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone! We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.

Hmm, have you ever thought about how many people may have had guns in your store that you never knew about? The first time I spent all day with a Full size .45 on my hip, not even my wife knew I had it, and she was with me all day. But yeah, if you asked me what that bulge was in my waistband, I would be happy to show you the gun, and my permit. There would be no point in wasting my time in insisting on my right to privacy.

Here's a hint: most responsible-type gun carriers keep them in a holster specially designed for comfort and safety, so if you do "catch" someone with a gun, and you see it well-carried, you probably don't anything to worry about. If they have it poorly stuffed in their waistband, at the very least you know they're irresponsible.

PS. Please don't shoot me!

Sorry, but I don't see that as funny.

 

[buldog]

Yea... because leaving guns outside is much safer then keeping em on your person... [/quote
Just better for my peace of mind, the less weapons around(especially when I am not armed) the safer it feels.

The .45 was concealed until he took it out without warning me what he was doing. I had no idea he had it. Just didn't like the guy pulling out a gun in my store(licensed or not).

Sorry for the bad attempt at humor, just trying to keep it light and failed.


For the record, I'm not against guns or the right to carry them. I just feel that some places and situations are not appropriate.

 

[Carol]

Then he wasn't carrying concealed. Concealed-until-he-pulled-it-out isn't concealed-carry.

 

[Cruentus]

Yea... because leaving guns outside is much safer then keeping em on your person... [/quote
Just better for my peace of mind, the less weapons around(especially when I am not armed) the safer it feels.

The .45 was concealed until he took it out without warning me what he was doing. I had no idea he had it. Just didn't like the guy pulling out a gun in my store(licensed or not).

Sorry for the bad attempt at humor, just trying to keep it light and failed.


For the record, I'm not against guns or the right to carry them. I just feel that some places and situations are not appropriate.

Just remember this the next time your robbed, because criminals don't obey signs or your comfort level. An armed citizen could be the only thing stopping a violent crime while you are at work, keep in mind.

But since your more concerned about feeling safe rather then being safe, how about pretending that no one carries a gun into your store, and the gun people will pretend like they are obeying those rules. Then, everyones at least comfortable while being safer.

btw... that guy whipping out his .45 without warning was completely inappropriate and not a representation of the rest of the law abiding public who carries. "Concealed" means that it is supposed to remain hidden.

 

[Cryozombie]

You know what I think about places with those signs?

They are great places to steal guns. Because the people who comply with the signs will lock them in their cars, under the seat, or in the trunk or glovebox.

I don't live in a CCW state (one of only 3 states its impossible to get some form of carry permit, yay for the Democrats!) but I have actually seen people when I was in Ohio at a mall pull their firearms out and put em in the trunk... and I thought "Holy ****, I'd never do that!"

 

[Andy Moynihan]

This is probably not going to be well received. Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession. I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool). We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed, so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress. Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes? Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search). The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone! We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.

PS. Please don't shoot me!

Two answers to that:

1) In my state leaving a firearm unattended in a vehicle is not legal. I have enough to worry about lugging my holster, Commander-sized 1911, at least one reload, cell phone, folder, pepper spray, wallet and keys without having to lug a trigger lock around with the whole mess.
Also, if I am seen taking it out and securing it in my vehicle, all's it takes is one troublemaking ***hole to call the cops and say "Oh, he pulled his gun on me" and there's a charge of brandishing, my permit pulled, my guns confiscated and who knows what kind of jail time.

2) the chucklehead who whipped his piece out in the store DESERVES to have his permit pulled and his guns confiscated. If you need for whatever reason to notify a clerk you are armed( say, if you are being fitted for a suit and want room for your holster) you simply tell them there is one consideration and take out and show them your PERMIT ONLY. Somebody sees your gun, that can become a charge of brandishing and there goes your permit at minimum.

 

[buldog]

Then he wasn't carrying concealed. Concealed-until-he-pulled-it-out isn't concealed-carry.

The distinction is kind of moot isn't it? Either your carrying or your not regardless of your skill at concealment. Granted the guy was a real idiot(he looked at me like I was out of my mind when I asked him to please take the gun back to his car). Keep in mind that most of the public's exposure to "concealed" weapons is through guys just like him not responsible, law abiding people like yourselves.
Also, If i'm robbed i'll hand over the money without a fuss and pull the silent alarm as soon as i can. I don't want to get in a gun battle over a few bucks(yes we do have a gun but by the time i tried to get it i would already be dead). We also used to have an employee who was also a LEO and he carried in plain sight. Yeah we never had a holdup but we also scared off a lot of customers that way too.
I don't think there is an answer that will suit everybody. So if you must carry then please try to keep it concealed properly.