Respect is earned vs. automatically given

[chrispillertkd]

When addressing ITF matters or how things are done in the ITF, I spell it "Taekwon-Do" with a hyphen, because that is how the ITF spells it. Similarly, I address General Choi as General Choi, because that is the title that is used within the ITF. Is doing these things courtesy or respect?

Referring to General Choi as "General Choi" is courteous. Spelling Taekwon-Do with a hyphen may or may not be depending on who you're writing to. Most ITF'ers I know wouldn't take an alternate spelling as a slight. Your other posts regarding the ITF and General Choi have made it clear that you don't him, however. And some of them have been less than courteous towards him, too.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since I don't know the context of the quotes in the OP, I won't address them specifically.

I will say this: There are different levels of respect.

I respect everyone as a human being. This is the lowest, most basic level of respect. One need not earn it; it is automatic.

I respect the office that is held by various human beings. For example, I respect the office of the presidency, regardless of my feelings about the particular human being who holds it. The individual in question is to be respected as president because he or she is president by the collective will of the people. For that reason, I avoid deriding the president, regardless of who he or she may be.

Now, I may think that the president is incompetent (not saying that I do or don't; this is hypothetical) and can express that courteously.

In a political dicussion, that would mean saying, 'I voted against president _____ during the election because I felt that he lacked sufficient ability to to the job. Now that he is president, his lack of ability has resulted in x,y, and z. Now, that was courteous, but in saying that, it would be clear that I do not respect his ability.

Or I could express those sentiments discourteously.

In a political discussion that would mean calling the president an incompetant boob who has no business being the president and might include sundry off color remarks about the man.

Thus in this scenario, I respect him as a person and as a holder of public office, but I do not respect his ability to execute the duties of said public office.

How I choose to express those sentiments says more about me than it does about the man or woman in question.

Regarding respect of seniors, one of the things that bothers me in discussions about respecting them is that some seem to feel that respecting them means agreeing with and/or going along with them regardless of what they say. That is, frankly, unhealthy.

Now, there is a way to go about voicing concerns and asking for clarification with respect and courtesy. 'Sir, I am sorry, but I simply cannot go along with that' is courteous and respectful, while 'you've taken leave of your senses' is not.

In the case of seniors with whom you have no direct contact, such as organizational heads and such, one can say on the internet, 'such and such is an idiot' or one can say, 'such and such made/is making a flawed policy or choice in the direction of the organization for reasons x, y, and z.'

Also, one can respect a person but not respect all of their decisions.

Daniel

 

[Kacey]

So is the outward display of courtesy the same whether or not you respect the person? I ask because I think the courtesy and respect are two sides of the same coin, that you cannot separate them. I also think that those who do attempt to separate them end up being discourteous to those that the feel are unworthy of respect.

I can be, and generally am, courteous to people I don't respect. As I stated previously, and others have stated, I can demonstrate courtesy to a position, and office, the holder of an office, the holder of a rank, etc. without actually respecting the person I am being courteous to. The ability to be courteous to people one doesn't respect is a skill useful in a wide variety of situations, both social and business.

Who are you courteous for? I demonstrate courtesy for myself, because I consider courtesy important. Who I am courteous to, or why I choose to be courteous, has nothing to do with any other issue. Likewise, who I choose to respect, and why I respect certain people, ranks, offices, etc. and not others, is a personal decision. Often, the two coincide; sometimes they don't. I don't have a problem with a dichotomy between them - but I also don't see courtesy and respect as opposite sides of a single coin, as you stated above that you do.

 

[puunui]

So is the outward display of courtesy the same whether or not you respect the person?

 

[puunui]

IMO it's like the old "When in Rome do as the Romans do". I consider that courtesy, since, while I may observe certain host rituals as a courtesy to the host, I may be totally devoid of any feeling for the rituals whatsoever including respect.

I notice that many of the "courtesy vs. respect" advocates are members or former members of the ITF, no doubt because one of General Choi's tenets is "courtesy". By the way, originally Courtesy was not one of the tenets.

One question though: What is the penalty if an ITF member violates a Tenet? Say I am an ITF member who preaches the Tenets and I act discourteously to someone else. Is there a consequence to that, other than being a hypocrite?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A lot depends upon how you use the term 'respect.' The way that it is being described by those who do not make the distinction between courtesy and repect, respect is essentially courtesy.

Also, we use the term 'respectfully' to describe what is essentially courteous behavior.

But some of us, myself included, use the term respect to denote how one feels towards another person and courtesy to denote how we interract with them.

Neither is right or wrong, but it is interesting to see how differently people use the very common word, repect.

Daniel

 

[Earl Weiss]

So is the outward display of courtesy the same whether or not you respect the person?

For this I can provide a definite maybe. In public encounters with strangers (in one of my occupations I have many varied encounters) I will almost always dispaly courtesy irrespective of whether or not their behavior warrants any respect.

Sadly, some will take a show of courtesy as evidence of weakness. If I feel this is the case I will be less courteous as the encounter progresses.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I notice that many of the "courtesy vs. respect" advocates are members or former members of the ITF, no doubt because one of General Choi's tenets is "courtesy". By the way, originally Courtesy was not one of the tenets.

One question though: What is the penalty if an ITF member violates a Tenet? Say I am an ITF member who preaches the Tenets and I act discourteously to someone else. Is there a consequence to that, other than being a hypocrite?

There is no hard and fast rule for the ITF governing all situations that I am aware of. In ITF competitions, being discourteous can result in sanctions against a competitor. This may be a minus point or a DQ and can be employed if the competitor or coach are discourteous.

I have also seen students be required to write letters of apology for being discourteous and being suspended from class or promotoions but this was not handled at an international level since it did not involve an international activity.

 

[Balrog]

Basic respect is owed to everyone based on circumstances. For example, if I meet someone for the first time and find out that they hold a Black Belt in some style of martial arts, I feel that person is due a certain level of respect to start out with.

But it's up to them to maintain their worthiness of that respect. For example, if I find out later that he's a drug addict or a wife beater, then obviously my respect level is going to go down.

I know several high ranks in my organization that I "bow to the belt." I respect them as good technicians and good teachers, but they.....well, they're jerks, plain and simple. There it is.

 

[puunui]

But it's up to them to maintain their worthiness of that respect. For example, if I find out later that he's a drug addict or a wife beater, then obviously my respect level is going to go down.

How about about if you go to boot camp and the drill instructor starts yelling and swearing at you? Do you lose inner respect for the drill instructor at that point? And if you did, do you act courteously to him, or is it ok at that point to plot his demise?

The example that comes to my mind is in Kill Bill 2, when Beatrix goes to learn from the White Eyebrow master. He has his own dignity, but on first glance, he is rude, insulting and is certainly not showing any courteousness or respect towards Beatrix or her skills. And yet she goes on to learn many things, not the least of which is to maintain your dignity even in the face of great hardship. She learns this lesson while eating rice and demonstrates this when she digs herself out of the grave and politely asks for a glass of water at the diner.

Contrast this to eyepatch girl, who felt disrespected by white eyebrow master, to the point where she kills him by poisoning his rice.

Which example should we follow, realizing that someone is the real deal and therefore we learn from them ALL the lessons presented, or do we harm our teacher or senior because we mistakenly believe he/she has somehow disrespected or hurt us?

 

[StudentCarl]

How about about if you go to boot camp and the drill instructor starts yelling and swearing at you? Do you lose inner respect for the drill instructor at that point? And if you did, do you act courteously to him, or is it ok at that point to plot his demise?

The example that comes to my mind is in Kill Bill 2, when Beatrix goes to learn from the White Eyebrow master. He has his own dignity, but on first glance, he is rude, insulting and is certainly not showing any courteousness or respect towards Beatrix or her skills. And yet she goes on to learn many things, not the least of which is to maintain your dignity even in the face of great hardship. She learns this lesson while eating rice and demonstrates this when she digs herself out of the grave and politely asks for a glass of water at the diner.

Contrast this to eyepatch girl, who felt disrespected by white eyebrow master, to the point where she kills him by poisoning his rice.

Which example should we follow, realizing that someone is the real deal and therefore we learn from them ALL the lessons presented, or do we harm our teacher or senior because we mistakenly believe he/she has somehow disrespected or hurt us?

This is really asking how you can identify disrespect, a deep but relevant question.

 

[mango.man]

As an Air Force cop ohh so many years ago, I can tell you a few things about military respect. One of the roles of Air Force Law Enforcement was Entry Controller to the base, certain buildings, flightlines etc. As an EC, I had dozens, if not hundreds of interactions with officers from butter-bars to 5-stars each and every day as I verified that they were authorized to enter the locations that they were attempting to enter. I saluted every single one the moment that they were identified as officers. But I wasn't saluting them out of respect for anything that they had done. I was saluting their rank because military protocol is that enlisted folks salute all officers.

As time went on I moved on from Entry Controller to Patrolman. I pulled over officers almost daily for traffic violations etc. As soon I asked for their Military ID, Drivers License, Registration and Proof on Insurance I would salute (based on the rank shown on their ID). I wasn't saluting them because I respected their ability to drive faster than the speed limit.

When put in a situation where I had to apprehend an officer, say DUI or beating the crap out of their wife, I would always salute them as soon as I recognized that they were an officer. Then I would cuff em and stuff em. I certainly wasn't saluting them based on their superior ability to beat the crap out of their wife or child.

Yes there were officers that I respected as people, just like there were enlisted people that I respected as people. I would never be expected to salute the enlisted people though, including my Training Instructors is Basic Training but regardless of if I respected the officer as a person or not, I always saluted their rank.

When it comes to TKD. I have always respected my daughters instructors and masters over the years. Because of their rank mostly and I understand the level of commitment that it took for them to achieve such rank. But in one case where an instructor was discovered to be a child molester, did I continue to respect him? Are you freaking kidding me? I don't care if he is a white belt or 9th dan, he gets no respect from me. In this case he was a 4th dan. I made sure to out him to every parent I could before we left that school.

He was murdered along with his girlfriend, her 2 kids and 2 other adults a couple years ago. I still feel horribly for the innocent victims but the fact that the creep is dead, well I couldn't be happier. I have said it before and I will say it again, the only good child molester is a dead child molester.

Had I still been in the Air Force and had he been a TKD instructor in the Air Force as well as being an officer, I would have been sure to salute before I sat down with him and told him that I knew what was going on in his private life and that he should not be teaching TKD to kids while those legal proceedings were going on and that if he didn't get the F out of the dojang I would tell every parent. When he said he would not leave I would have gotten up and saluted before stepping out. But I sure as hell wouldn't have been saluting because I respect child molesters.

In the military I automatically respected the rank of all officers. I respected many people, both enlisted and officers. In the military as well as daily life, to include TKD, I always respect(ed) people as people until they did something to lose my respect. I never stopped respecting Training Instructors for yelling at me. That was their job and I don't disrespect people for doing their job.

I don't revere people though for any reason be it the rank on their lapel or the rank on their belt.

 

[puunui]

In the military I automatically respected the rank of all officers. I respected many people, both enlisted and officers. In the military as well as daily life, to include TKD, I always respect(ed) people as people until they did something to lose my respect. I never stopped respecting Training Instructors for yelling at me. That was their job and I don't disrespect people for doing their job.

That last statement is where all of the conflicts are, in my opinion. Take my white eyebrow master example. White eyebrow was doing his job, teaching both beatrix and eye patch. betrix maintained her discipline, while eye patch did not, because she did not think that white eyebrow was doing his job by "disrespecting" her. So she poisoned him.

Say you were learning from White Eyebrow. What would you do in that situation, accept the training or poison the teacher?

I will give you an example which made it crystal clear for me. I was studying with GM JI Han Jae in Daly City when he first moved to the United States. In fact, I gave up an opportunity to attend Harvard Law School just so I could train with him. I tried to learn as much as I could. A few months before I was going to move back to Hawaii, he took myself and the senior student aside and he did this pain thing to my left elbow and left wrist. He did not explain why he did that. The next day I could not lift my arm up. I had to literally hold my left arm up using my right hand. My left wrist and elbow was sore for a year afterwards. During that whole time, I felt angry about it. But I never said anything and continued to attend class right up to the time I left to return home. I never said anything to GM Ji about it and tried as best I could to suck it up and not show pain. It was very painful because my left arm is my teaching arm and every time someone did a technique to my wrist or elbow, it hurt like hell. I kept wondering why he did that. Then about a year later, almost exactly one year, the pain went away. Since then people can do their techniques as hard as possible, and it doesn't hurt at all. My wrist and elbow is now painless and I can take anyone's best technique with ZERO pain. You pretty much have to break my wrist or arm for me to feel it. He only did this to the two of us as far as I know, for the longest time.

I could have been a crybaby and complained to everyone what he did. I could have told everyone that I knew that GM Ji was a terrible teacher who hurt his students. I could have become bitter and resentful and waited for my opportunity to seek revenge. But I would have been wrong if I had done that. I realize now that he was giving me a gift, a gift that he did not give to everyone. It made me stronger, it made me a better martial artist. But I didn't know that at the time, and he not telling me what he was doing was a test of my self discipline and character. And I am glad that I never went down the dark side with that, which would have been easy let me tell you. It hurt for a year. I couldn't use my left arm for one year without pain. After one year I returned to see GM Ji and told him that I finally understood what he had done for me and how much I appreciated his gift. He just smiled, and I can say that it was a real turning point because I saw him and all my teachers and seniors really, in a different light.

So many times I see juniors disrespecting their seniors or their teachers. To me, it is a lack of self discipline and respect. Are you going to act like an animal and eat with your rice with your fingers, or are you going to maintain dignity and trust that your teacher or senior has your best interests in mind? Instead of thinking that the teacher or the senior has malicious intent, I think "what am I supposed to learn from this? What is the lesson here?" But then again, I choose my teachers very carefully.

I think that who we choose as our teachers is perhaps the most important decision that one can make in terms of your martial arts journey. Most students think very little about the choice and go with convenience. I relocated and spent thousands to fly all over to study with mine. I researched very carefully who I wanted to study with, and once I made the decision, I stick with them through thick and thin, trusting that they have my best interests in mind.

Sometimes your teacher or your senior causes you pain. How you respond to that, whether you maintain your self discipline and respect, and trust in your teacher or senior, or not, will determine your path. You can lash out in an ignorant misunderstanding vengeful way. It certainly feels good in the short term. But is it really worth it? To me it's not but then, everyone is different.

I am not talking about criminal acts, child molestation or whatever else. What I am talking about it what happens in the normal course of the teacher student or senior junior relationship.

 

[mango.man]

So he was like Mr Miyagi healing Daniel Son in the locker room, with some mystery technique, so he could fight for the coveted All Valley Championship?

Suppose he had done something wrong and to this day you still could not use your left arm without great pain. Would you still be saying "Well he must have had some reason, but I'll be dammed if I know what it was"? Would you have ever questioned him about it? Would you still consider it a gift?

 

[puunui]

So he was like Mr Miyagi healing Daniel Son in the locker room, with some mystery technique, so he could fight for the coveted All Valley Championship?

Actually that is a real technique, not a mystery one.

Suppose he had done something wrong and to this day you still could not use your left arm without great pain. Would you still be saying "Well he must have had some reason, but I'll be dammed if I know what it was"? Would you have ever questioned him about it? Would you still consider it a gift?

But he didn't though. That is the point, not what if he did something wrong. He knew what he was doing, but I didn't.

 

[mango.man]

But he didn't though. That is the point, not what if he did something wrong. He knew what he was doing, but I didn't.

My question though is at what point would you have questioned what he had done? Or would you have just written it off for the rest of your life as "Well he must have had some reason for disabling the full use of my left arm" but I will just never know what it was?

Have you ever tried to use the same technique on anyone?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The other grey area is when "belts are off". We are taught that in class with belts on we respect our seniors, instructors etc It is almost as if inside the dojang they are put up on a pedestal. Once outside the dojang and "belts are off" we are all equal. We go out for korean food after gradings with the rest of our class and I dont think an on looker could tell which person is our 7th dan instructor. Just because someone is higher ranked in tkd does not mean they are higher ranked in 'life'. I was walking with a friend one time at the shops (he is a karateka) and he saw his sensei. We went up to say hello and my friend bowed and talked to him as if he was superior to him in someway. I dont understand this, in the dojo certainly I agree but with belts off its different to me. At work I treat all of my employees differently than I would if I just ran into them at the shops, I am not better than them and I am only their superior in the work place. I would not expect them to walk up and grovel and bow if they saw me outside of work. Actually I remember the first time I was invited out for a few drinks with some of my seniors. I motioned to the waiter to serve them first, as I though this was the right thing to do. They motioned back to the waiter to serve me first and my instructor said to me "belts off here mate, we're all equal". I really respected him for that as I believe a lot of martial artists use their rank inside the dojang to make themselves out to be "better" than others outside the dojang.

 

[puunui]

My question though is at what point would you have questioned what he had done? Or would you have just written it off for the rest of your life as "Well he must have had some reason for disabling the full use of my left arm" but I will just never know what it was? Have you ever tried to use the same technique on anyone?

I know what your question was the first time you asked. The point I am making is that he knew what he was doing, but I didn't, and if I flew off the handle like I see so many juniors doing to their seniors, then I would have been wrong. I sucked it up for a year and probably would have gone my whole life sucking it up without saying anything. And my arm is still good to go to this day. But he used to always tell us that Hapkido is not to hurt anyone permanently so I had that in the back of my mind that entire year, that there must have been a purpose for this and that I would not hurt like this forever because it went against what he taught us. So I was clinging to that for the year.

I tried to lightly do it to one of my students, but I felt like I didn't know what I was doing so I stopped. To this day I don't know what he did. I know that when he did it to my elbow, it made this sick crackling sound, like when Bruce Lee broke Chuck Norris' arm in Return of the Dragon. In fact, when he was doing that, I remember thinking this must be how Chuck Norris felt in the movie.

 

[mango.man]

The other grey area is when "belts are off". We are taught that in class with belts on we respect our seniors, instructors etc It is almost as if inside the dojang they are put up on a pedestal. Once outside the dojang and "belts are off" we are all equal. We go out for korean food after gradings with the rest of our class and I dont think an on looker could tell which person is our 7th dan instructor. Just because someone is higher ranked in tkd does not mean they are higher ranked in 'life'. I was walking with a friend one time at the shops (he is a karateka) and he saw his sensei. We went up to say hello and my friend bowed and talked to him as if he was superior to him in someway. I dont understand this, in the dojo certainly I agree but with belts off its different to me. At work I treat all of my employees differently than I would if I just ran into them at the shops, I am not better than them and I am only their superior in the work place. I would not expect them to walk up and grovel and bow if they saw me outside of work. Actually I remember the first time I was invited out for a few drinks with some of my seniors. I motioned to the waiter to serve them first, as I though this was the right thing to do. They motioned back to the waiter to serve me first and my instructor said to me "belts off here mate, we're all equal". I really respected him for that as I believe a lot of martial artists use their rank inside the dojang to make themselves out to be "better" than others outside the dojang.

Certainly social situations are different from formal situations. Some would say that you should not fraternize with your superiors outside of the workplace to maintain the necessary respect.

Using the example of the military again, fraternization is "prohibited". Is it enforced? Not normally until it obviously starts to interfere with work. By the book, officers should hang with officers, NCOs with NCOs and lower enlisted ranks with their peers. As an NCO, I dated lower enlisted ranks. Hell, my wife of now 19 years was an E-2 and I an E-5 when we first started dating. Certainly a forbidden relationship. At work she referred to me as Sgt Braun and I referred to her as Airman Braun so nobody had a problem with it. Had Airman Braun though been seen as getting some sort of special treatment because she was sleeping with Sgt. Braun, than the Air Force certainly would have determined that there was a problem.

Going for dinner or drinks with your dojang superiors, well as long as you guys have fun outside but when you are inside the dojang the rank rules and people don't think that Jimmy red belt is getting special treatment from instructor Bill because they are drinking buddies, then good for you for being able to have that sort of relationship.

 

[mango.man]

I know what your question was the first time you asked. The point I am making is that he knew what he was doing, but I didn't, and if I flew off the handle like I see so many juniors doing to their seniors, then I would have been wrong. I sucked it up for a year and probably would have gone my whole life sucking it up without saying anything. And my arm is still good to go to this day. But he used to always tell us that Hapkido is not to hurt anyone permanently so I had that in the back of my mind that entire year, that there must have been a purpose for this and that I would not hurt like this forever because it went against what he taught us. So I was clinging to that for the year.

I tried to lightly do it to one of my students, but I felt like I didn't know what I was doing so I stopped. To this day I don't know what he did. I know that when he did it to my elbow, it made this sick crackling sound, like when Bruce Lee broke Chuck Norris' arm in Return of the Dragon. In fact, when he was doing that, I remember thinking this must be how Chuck Norris felt in the movie.

There are lots of people that "know what they are doing" but then still do it wrong. I don't consider blind allegiance a sign of respect nor do I consider questioning a persons bizarre actions to be a sign of disrespect.

I don't think it would have been out of line or disrespectful for you to ask him why he did what he did either in that first year or several years later had the pain persisted.

I am not saying get all up in his face, but I would have questioned him at some point and I don't think it would have been disrespectful to do so.