For the record, I study with a very devout Christian. The class includes atheists, Pagans, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Catholics and Protestants. Everyone is a grown-up. Nobody uses it as a soapbox, least of all the teacher. That's the way it should be. People do say "Merry Christmas", "Good Yom Tov" and "Eid Mubarak" to students of the appropriate religions on holidays because it's polite.
Religion VS.Art
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dancingalone
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Don't they exist already? I thought some of the Black Kenpo Federation dojos back in the day had some Muslim elements to them or at least they had many Muslim members.
As for the level of ease or unease with them, that really depends on the person asked as well as the context of the school itself. I wouldn't be thrilled about a TKD school that promotes the Taliban's version of Islam, but I would have nothing against a inam teaching TKD at his mosque, similar to how many pastors have the same arrangement at their churches.
The BKF has a lot of Muslim members. But it has at least as many Christians. And the BKF doesn't endorse or espouse any religion.
Then you are a much better American than most of the people wrapping themselves the flag and a fair section of the people here on MT who view Islam and all Muslims as terrorists.
dancingalone
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I have heard that some of the dojos back in the day had a strong Muslim recruitment angle along with a empowerment theme. I don't doubt organizationally this might not be an overall goal of the federation itself.
I had an interesting talk with one of the founding members, Cliff Stewart. The BKF was formed for a very simple reason: racism.
Back in the day predominantly White Karate organizations would not accept Black members cf. Men of Steel Discipline. White and Asian racism just wouldn't permit it. And the rules for the big circuits were set up so members of an organization never fought each other in the first round. Guru Cliff recounted that Black competitors could be guaranteed to fight each other for the first round or two, knocking most of them out for the later rounds.
He and a couple friends were sitting around his kitchen table one night and decided "Why don't we form our own organization?" That's how the BKF started. A number of the schools were run by people with strong Nation of Islam ties. A bunch of the mold-breaking first Black anything in those days was run by people connected to the NOI. And yes, the NOI was big on recruiting. Many of them became Orthodox Muslims of one sort or another later on and lost the NOI missionary fervor.
Of course, the NOI was only doing for Blacks what pretty much every Evangelical Christian sect does for the whole world and what the more reprehensible members do for Whites.
SahBumNimRush
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Very interesting Tellner, I confess I know little of the Kenpo ciruits of old or of late.. . But I can vouch for the traditional TKD circuit of old and of late. Some of the greatest TKD fighters of the late 60's and 70's were black. Mike Warren, Albert Cheeks, Joseph Hayes, John Holloway, Archie Coles, William Felton, Gerard Robbins, Dennis Robinson, Terrance Watson to name a few.. . These guys were all on either the first or second EVER TKD national team.
I know that digresses from the OP, but just thought I'd throw my .02 in on that comment Tellner. The only overt racism I have ever seen in the my small piece of the TKD world really is Korean vs. ALL us round eyes.. . haha
I know that digresses from the OP, but just thought I'd throw my .02 in on that comment Tellner. The only overt racism I have ever seen in the my small piece of the TKD world really is Korean vs. ALL us round eyes.. . haha
Bruno@MT
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I think Religion should be treated just like politics or sexual preference or or things during MA practice: Leave it at the door. You can talk before class and after class, but during class it doesn't exist.
Since we are in a TKD forum let's use that as the example: what differentiates 'Christian' TKD with the regular kind? surely the techniques are the same, as are the rules, grading requirements (if applicable) etc. I really don't see how you could make TKD 'Christian'
The only thing I could see it happen is the teacher using his classroom as a soapbox to spread his personal beliefs which have otherwise nothing to do with the art.
Since we are in a TKD forum let's use that as the example: what differentiates 'Christian' TKD with the regular kind? surely the techniques are the same, as are the rules, grading requirements (if applicable) etc. I really don't see how you could make TKD 'Christian'
The only thing I could see it happen is the teacher using his classroom as a soapbox to spread his personal beliefs which have otherwise nothing to do with the art.
It's not just a soapbox. The teacher who does this is using his authority to encourage people to listen to and share his religious beliefs. People who wouldn't otherwise sit there and listen to the sermon or pray the prayers do so out of politeness and respect for his position as a martial arts teacher.
SahBumNimRush
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I want to reiterate that I am not an advocate of mixing the two. That being said, there is a difference, IMHO, how it is conducted. If there is a dojang down the street that doesn't label itself as anything other than a TKD school, and once you sign up, you realize it is religion + TKD.. . Well that would certainly turn my stomach, and I firmly believe the two have no reason to be mixed together in that type of setting.
However, if a mosque, church, synagogue, etc.. . chooses to incorporate a martial arts program, I see the parallels that CAN be made between the code of ethics, moral culture, and self-discipline that is taught in the martial arts and the proper "spiritual" path most religions preach. IMO, that would probably get in the way of good training, but that's why I don't participate in schools like that.
If a school down the street openly labels itself as "kicks for Jesus" or whatever, so be it, who cares? It's pretty obvious it is a mix of MA and Religion before you even step foot through the doorway.
Again, I want to make clear I do not like the idea of mixing the two, but that's my personal belief. I just don't see it as wrong, as long as people know what they are getting into before they sign up.
Bruno@MT
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That would be 'abusing' in my book. He is using his authority in an unrelated area to make people listen to / conform to his views in something that has nothing to do with MA.
I respect my teacher(s) a lot, and outside of the dojo I don't mind having long conversations with him to discuss politics, religion or whatnot (though my sensei and I are remarkably like minded) but the second he would assert his MA authority to e.g. make me listen to him or share his religious belief is the second I walk away and don't look back.
It is even in our rules that politics, religion, business etc stay outside the dojo, and IIRC you can get thrown out for bringing them in. Using power over people to foist beliefs on them is low. If people voluntarily sign up for both, then that's ok. More power to them for doing something they feel good about. But if they sign up for one and the sensei abuses his authority to force the other on them, that would be a low thing to do indeed.
And even then, it would NOT be christian TKD. It would be TKD + bible classes.
It may also help to see a bigger picture. There is a significant movement that decries modern church, esp. Protestant services as "too feminized", and therefore to blame for men not attending.
http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/why-men-stay-away-from-the-feminized-church/
http://www.churchformen.com/formen.php
http://pambg.blogspot.com/2009/02/feminized-church-devalues-men.html
And as a result, many are turning to martial arts specifically to attract men, combining that with a message that the man must be the dominant person in the household (and the woman must be the submissive).
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/us/02fight.html
IMO its pretty easy to see what is being sold.
http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/why-men-stay-away-from-the-feminized-church/
http://www.churchformen.com/formen.php
http://pambg.blogspot.com/2009/02/feminized-church-devalues-men.html
And as a result, many are turning to martial arts specifically to attract men, combining that with a message that the man must be the dominant person in the household (and the woman must be the submissive).
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/us/02fight.html
IMO its pretty easy to see what is being sold.
Bruno@MT
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Well...
Any man trying to convince my wife that she has to be submissive will probably require good self defense skills
So learning TKD for such 'men' is probably a necessity.
Well...
Any man trying to convince my wife that she has to be submissive will probably require good self defense skills
Yes dear.
Well….being submissive or dominant each has their own time and place, and each has the ability to be fun…. :angel:
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oh, grappling......
Bruno@MT
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Usually that is my line...
Traditionalist
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I am Buddhist and when I was growing up in my grandfather's school we never discussed buddhism during workouts but we did take time to meditate and reflect at the end. And I guess it was there because he would throw a philosophy at us every now and then. We as kids never took it as teaching buddhism we thought he was just giving us a wise lesson. I have noticed that since I've been in the U.S. that many christians are concerned with other religions being taught in classes (including meditation). I have never thought of meditation as religious its just a way to connect to oneself and to reflect. I have even seen schools advertise themself as christian taekwondo or christian martial arts. I guess as long as you let everyone know what you are doing then it okay.
I think the way we look at religion in the west is vastly different from the way it's look at in the east. Here it tends to be a very separate part of peoples lives so it's possible to 'leave it at the door' of whatever activity you are doing. Religons/beliefs such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc however seem to be much more a way of life than just a religion you pick up and leave when you want. it's inbued in every part of life so there's far less need to make such a big deal of it, it's part of the ebb and flow of life.
Christianity with it's call to convert and spread it's belief system seems to mean people do get themselves tied up into knots perhaps more than religions which don't try to convert. Perhaps there's less anxiety if you don't care what your neighbour believes.
Your beliefs and morals should be with you always, not just when you decide they are useful and dumped when you don't want to abide by them, they should be entwined in your very fabric of being, in every breath you take, this means you can do anything anywhere and still be true to yourself, it doesn't mean however you shout about them and try to persuade everyone to believe in the same as you.
People worry so much about how things 'seem', if they don't go to a Christian TKD class are they going to be less of a Christian? Are they going to be more of a Christian if they go to a religious MA class? Do people have so little faith and so much doubt that they need to constantly reinforce their religious beliefs by talking about it all the time with like minded people? No, this should all be internal, in your bones as it were so there's no need to make such a song and dance about what religion you are ( or not in some cases!) Just train.
Thus said Krishna the Enlightener: " The world is imprisoned in it's own activity, except when actions are performed as actions of G-d, therefore you must perform every action sacramentally, and be free from attachment to results." Bhagavad-Gita
Christianity with it's call to convert and spread it's belief system seems to mean people do get themselves tied up into knots perhaps more than religions which don't try to convert. Perhaps there's less anxiety if you don't care what your neighbour believes.
Your beliefs and morals should be with you always, not just when you decide they are useful and dumped when you don't want to abide by them, they should be entwined in your very fabric of being, in every breath you take, this means you can do anything anywhere and still be true to yourself, it doesn't mean however you shout about them and try to persuade everyone to believe in the same as you.
People worry so much about how things 'seem', if they don't go to a Christian TKD class are they going to be less of a Christian? Are they going to be more of a Christian if they go to a religious MA class? Do people have so little faith and so much doubt that they need to constantly reinforce their religious beliefs by talking about it all the time with like minded people? No, this should all be internal, in your bones as it were so there's no need to make such a song and dance about what religion you are ( or not in some cases!) Just train.
Thus said Krishna the Enlightener: " The world is imprisoned in it's own activity, except when actions are performed as actions of G-d, therefore you must perform every action sacramentally, and be free from attachment to results." Bhagavad-Gita
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