Religion?Sport?Hobby?or Way of Life?

[lifewise]

I have this neighbour that ... well, she is a lovely woman and means well but she is rather nosey and VERY opinionated as I experienced this morning.

Oh, forgot to add outspoken!

My daughter and I were out in the backyard practicing. My daughter studies EPAK and TKD, and I am solely Kenpo. Our yard is totally fenced in and has many large bushes/trees on the perimeter to provide privacy - or so I thought.

Seems the other day this lady watched us sparring in the back yard from her upstairs window. This appears to be the worst thing a mother can do with her child according to this woman...

I am teaching her to be aggressive apparently. She continued to tell me that I am not helping the violence in the world by showing my daughter how to trip someone and hit them with that big stick. (the bo we were using)

All this she was willing to overlook until this morning. She felt compelled to come over and confront me after watching us practice EPAK salutation.

This woman is very religious and she didn't hesitate to tell me her views on my family/friends and our martial arts practice.

So here is a question for all the folks on martial talk - is the practice of martial arts a religion? In many arts, students follow a "master". There are those individuals that studied directly with this "master" so are they "disciples"? Those who practice continue to "spread the word" or art and in doing so we "recruit" new souls?

This morning has been an interesting one ... lets see what your comments are.

:asian:

P.S. I will use the asian bow here, hopefully no one is watching through the window! :rofl:

 

[Blindside]

What religion, if it is some version of Christianity, dig up that quote from Jesus about requiring that each of his followers have a sword. Then explain that you are actually de-escalating from there.

It won't work, people like this often haven't read the Bible enough. But its a nice comeback....

Lamont

 

[lifewise]

:rofl:

ah I new I would feel better after I posted ....

 

[hand2handCombat]

i dont really think its religious but mostly monks practice ma. meditation though is part of the Bhuddist religion. MA could be a form of meditation

 

[Kirk]

M.A. could be dang near anything you want it to be. I'd love
to be able to come to your place and give that woman a piece
of MY mind! Just cause your story ticks me off so much! Religious
or not, the woman is a busy body, plain and simple! What was
that lady's name on Bewitched? Couldn't stop from looking out
her window to find out what everyone ELSE is up to? Sounds
like this woman needs to get a life of her own.

 

[Matt Stone]

So nice that all the posts thusfar have been so constructive and helpful... :shrug:

Alan Watts (the foremost Western exponent of Zen Buddhism in the 70s and also an ordained Episcopal (I think) priest) stated that "any activity taken to its extreme of practice becomes religion." By that rather loose definition, anything you delve deeply into that occupies a large part of your thoughts and time, becomes religion. For some, their religion is their spiritual pursuit of union with their Creator. For others it is golf, volleyball, softball, bowling, whatever.

For us weirdoes it is MA.

The bowing thing is always a big hit with the religious fanatics that don't understand its significance. It is also a big beef with me that folks that practice MA often don't understand its real usage either. In the US we shake hands when we meet someone, begin a contest, etc. The bow really has little significance beyond that (as far as I am aware anyway). But, given that Americans are wonderfully ignorant of other cultures beyond what we see on TV or in the movie theater, there are those who see such alien actions such as bowing to be some kind of religious action as opposed to their much more mundane origins.

Your neighbor is a nut, bottom line.

If she had a problem with the violence issue, fine. Her ideas can be countered with the fact that, rather than encouraging violence, MA provide alternatives to violence, developing confidence to no longer be viewed as a potential victim by predators (fact: people that appear to be easy targets are usually targeted. Those who appear NOT to be easy targets are left alone...), empowering your daughter to be capable of handling violence should there be no other alternative, etc. In fact, what you are doing with your daughter is a great thing - removing her from the weak woman stereotype and giving her the ability to compete on an even playing field by assisting her in becoming a strong, powerful, confident woman. Maybe this is what is really bothering your neighbor...?

So here is a question for all the folks on martial talk - is the practice of martial arts a religion? In many arts, students follow a "master". There are those individuals that studied directly with this "master" so are they "disciples"? Those who practice continue to "spread the word" or art and in doing so we "recruit" new souls?

Here is a reply for folks that are not martial artisits: We don't follow "masters," because a person who is one would never allow themselves to be addressed as one; We instead go to a teacher who provides instruction in the skills we wish to develop, like going to the local community college to take a class on automotive repair. We are not "disciples," because "disciples" follow a "master," and do so with blind devotion; the path of a warrior demands that he/she think for him/her self - doing anything less runs the ultimate risks. We don't "spread the word," but we do inform others of the benefits of our practices; the same can be said for anyone that just joined a fitness center that has a really great personal trainer or aerobics program. We don't "recruit new souls," because it isn't their soul we are concerned with! Just new meat to toss around the dojo and suck floor...

Best to simply nod, play nice, and ignore the neighbor entirely...

Just my humble and devalued 2 yen.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[Rob_Broad]

When can I meet your neighbor. She will be breaking out the holy water and climbing the fence with her cross in her hand and on the way back she can use both hands to climb the fence to get away. The cross will be hidden by that time.

But really she needs to mind her own business.:angel:

I don't think the martial arts need to fall into a religion, we are training to better ourselves.

 

[lifewise]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

"any activity taken to its extreme of practice becomes religion." By that rather loose definition, anything you delve deeply into that occupies a large part of your thoughts and time, becomes religion. For some, their religion is their spiritual pursuit of union with their Creator. For others it is golf, volleyball, softball, bowling, whatever.




Best to simply nod, play nice, and ignore the neighbor entirely...

No this woman isn't nuts - just very opinionated and takes "neighbourhood watch" literally!

I did just that - I simply listened to her views, and wished her a good day. It wasn't that I didn't think of things I would have LIKED to say ... but I wasn't raised that way.

 

[sweeper]

man people like that are fun to get into debates

ok here's what I pulled out of my dictionary on religion (webster's encyclopedic unabrdged dictionary of the english language)

religion n. 1. concern over what exists beyond the visible world, differentiated from philosophy in that it operates through faith or intuition rather than reeason, and genneraly includes the idea of the existence of a single being, group of beings, an eternal principle, or a transcendent spiritual entity that has created the world, that governs it, that controls its destinies, or that intervenes occasionally in the natural course of it's history, as well as the idea that ritual, prayer, spiritual exercises, certain principles of everyday conduct, etc., are expedient, due, or spiritually rewarding, or arise naturally out of an inner need as a human response to the belief in such a being, principle, etc. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices genneraly agreed apon by a number of persons or sects: the christian religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4. a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices: to get religion. 5. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 6. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 7. a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice. 8. religions, archaic. religious rites. 9. archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

Ok now, I don't know about you but it seems that the practice of martial art genneraly wouldn't have to have anything to do with religion, someone could posably make it an outgrowth of their religion but unless it were to be attached to an established religion it in and of it's self would not be a religion.

Tell the woman to o look it up and explain how martial art is religion, also have her look up "ignorance"

 

[Matt Stone]

Nicely done!!!

God forbid D) we actually use our language the way it is intended, and select our words not based on what we think they mean, but based on what they really do mean!

Again, sweeper, nicely done!!!

 

[Laevolus]

...I hope you don't mind a newbie jumping in here, but if she is so against violence due to her religious beliefs, you could point out to her how most of the biggest wars throughout history have been caused, at least in part, by religion.

The Crusades spring instantly to mind.

Mind you, some peoples mids will never be changed, one of my friends still believes that I'm just being taught how to kill people.

What you gonna do?

 

[Kirk]

The Spanish Inquisition is another .. but anyways ...

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

So nice that all the posts thusfar have been so constructive and helpful... :shrug:

Yeah, YOU'RE the only helpful one here, with the greatest
attitude. :shrug:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

The bowing thing is always a big hit with the religious fanatics that don't understand its significance. It is also a big beef with me that folks that practice MA often don't understand its real usage either. In the US we shake hands when we meet someone, begin a contest, etc. The bow really has little significance beyond that (as far as I am aware anyway). But, given that Americans are wonderfully ignorant of other cultures beyond what we see on TV or in the movie theater, there are those who see such alien actions such as bowing to be some kind of religious action as opposed to their much more mundane origins.

Wonderfully ignorant, nice choice of words, Mr Helpful. Ya ever
give thought to the fact that we just don't care? It's NOT our
culture, so we took what was "theirs" and made it "ours". It's
not blaspheme to anyone, it's customization. The bow has
different meanings to different people in different arts. None of
the styles lifewise studies are Japanese arts. My understanding
is that the bow in Kenpo was left in the system (if we're talking
EPAK) by Ed Parker as an homage to the asian history of which
the art comes from. That's all there is, there ain't no more. It's
not even like a handshake in this country.

 

[Matt Stone]

Apparently, you must be one of those folks that is either easily offended, or you cast yourself into the category of the unenlightened masses who are content to only learn bits and pieces and continue on "because you don't care" about anything else...

I am certainly happy for you, with your whole 9 months of training, that you don't care about the rest of the background of what you do, or for that matter, based on your "we don't care" attitude, why you do it.

It is, after all, your right to remain ignorant of whatever information you choose to avoid. If you are satisified with only what you are told, and choose not to delve further into topics because you are content with a superficial understanding, so be it. :asian:

It's NOT our culture, so we took what was "theirs" and made it "ours".

And that is a major problem with American culture and American MA... We decide we like something, take it for ourselves, then make use of it out of context or apply it incorrectly. We re-write history, we "absorb what is useful" but haven't got the first clue why it was useful to begin with... It all remains the product of perpetuated ignorance.

I would apologize for my post having offended you in some way if I truly cared. You are upset at my comment for some reason, and if it were because I had erred somehow then I would be concerned. But you simply choose to be offended (or at least apprear so - electronic communication can be misleading) just "because." Whatever.

It's not even like a handshake in this country.

And that is where your ignorance betrays you... The bow is as western a tradition as it is eastern. Bowing has both civil application as well as religious application in both European and American tradition. The bow has been used by itself or accompanying a handshake, although it has fallen into disuse during the last century.

So it is the same, both sides of the world. But in the American pursuit of individuality, we have relegated respect and courtesy to the back seat, and the bow along with it (handshake, too, for that matter...).

Gambarimasu.

 

[Kirk]

In EPAK it is NOT a handshake, period. You're coming across
as all knowing, and the rest of us "ignorant" <== YOUR words,
so tell me how YOU know what Ed Parker kept the bow in the
system for?! When did you last talk with him?

I'm not easily offended. You called my country's citizens ignorant
because YOU feel it necessary to know a bunch of "history"
associated with martial arts in order to practice them. Does a
scientist need to know where a test tube came from? Who
invented it, and why, to be an effective scientist? NOPE! Stop
stating your opinion as fact, and stop insulting my countrymen to
pump your own gnads. Do you even GET that?!?!? For every
"fact" you'll give me from some book, there's another book out
there stating something different. Look at your post .. it's
OPINION.

We haven't relegated respect and courtesy to the back seat,
we've made our own, just like all other countries have done
in their own time. Just because the U.S is younger, doesn't
mean we're not allowed the same right. Where is it written
that we have to follow the same customs of courtesy as
Japan?

I am certainly happy for you, with your whole 9 months of training, that you don't care about the rest of the background of what you do, or for that matter, based on your "we don't care" attitude, why you do it.

WHATEVER dude! I suppose you think that's clever? See, here
in America we have this little thing called FREEDOM, and I have
the full God given right to say whatever the hell I want to,
regardless of how much training I have. There's plenty of
American martial artists that have kicked the living crap out of
"Traditional" practioners in the style of their native country. So
don't start with me about how "ignorant" we are. Apparently
we customize WELL, and the inappropriate use of the word
Sensei, or our "wonderful ignorance" in bowing, or not following
Zen Budhism hasn't stopped us from successful progression.

Do you feel that there's only ONE reason to study M.A? Only one
path that someone can follow on this journey? Why oh why
would asian traditions or history factor in things in ANY way?!?!

 

[sweeper]

well if I recal I think the nod of the head as a greeting or acknowledgement was rooted sort of as a mini bow.. could be wrong on this don't even remember where I read/heard it..

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by sweeper

well if I recal I think the nod of the head as a greeting or acknowledgement was rooted sort of as a mini bow.. could be wrong on this don't even remember where I read/heard it..

So far in my miniscule 9 months (11 now), we've never used it
when facing someone, greeting someone, etc. ... nor have we
used a full bow, other than when stepping on or off the mat ..
as I said, as an homage to where the art came from. We've
never done it to each other, we salute, hand over fist.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kirk

In EPAK it is NOT a handshake, period. You're coming across as all knowing, and the rest of us "ignorant" <== YOUR words, so tell me how YOU know what Ed Parker kept the bow in the system for?! When did you last talk with him?

I suppose the same could be asked of you. Do you now present yourself publicly as a spokesperson for all of EPAK? I think I will post in the Kenpo forum and ask just such a question - what is the bow in EPAK for? Sounds like a good thread to start in many forums, actually...

I'm not easily offended. You called my (bold added by Yiliquan1 for emphasis) country's citizens ignorant because YOU feel it necessary to know a bunch of "history" associated with martial arts in order to practice them.

Funny you post this in this particular manner... Just out of curiosity, where, pray tell, do you think I am from? :ticked: Read my posts completely next time, and you will see the use of the word "we" when I am talking about Americans... Might that not indicate something Mr. Over-reacting?

Does a scientist need to know where a test tube came from? Who invented it, and why, to be an effective scientist? NOPE!

Surely not. However I suspect that a scientist worth his salt likely does know something of the formation of glass, how glass is prepared, and what its strengths and weaknesses are. Failure to know this information could very well lead to a disaster in the labratory... For example, which beaker do you put sulphuric acid in? The plastic one or the glass one? Why is there a difference?

Stop stating your opinion as fact, and stop insulting my (bold added by Yiliquan1 for emphasis)countrymen to pump your own gnads.

Never did state that my opinion was fact. And it seems that you, so far, are the only one insulted... Perhaps my comments struck too close to home?

Do you even GET that?!?!?

Get what, dear?

For every "fact" you'll give me from some book, there's another book out there stating something different. Look at your post .. it's OPINION.

See above response. Never said what I said was fact. If I believe a thing, then in my reality it is fact. Perhaps such things are not fact in your reality. Entirely possible. My teachers, martial and otherwise, taught me that superficial knowledge was insufficient. There is always more to know, another road that knowledge will take leading you to other topics, subjects, and experiences. You seem to be unwilling to go down those paths, and I have previously expressed my kudos to you for being content with what you already have.

We haven't relegated respect and courtesy to the back seat, we've made our own, just like all other countries have done in their own time.

Sure. That's why kids who are too young to shave and too poorly educated to understand most things they vote on think they can say what they want to whomever they choose... That's why "dissing" someone can get you killed because some pre-teen is better armed and feels you aren't giving him the appropriate "props" to him and his "peeps" because you refuse to kow tow to some zit-faced pre-pubescent punk... That's why little old ladies fear leaving their apartments, and the people that would be inclined to help said little old lady across the street with her groceries are liable to be slapped with a lawsuit for even thinking she needed help in the first place...

You're right. Americans are famous world wide for their respectful, courteous demeanor... Especially in a country where English isn't spoken. Then we are incredibly polite and understanding... not. :disgust:

Just because the U.S is younger, doesn't mean we're not allowed the same right. Where is it written that we have to follow the same customs of courtesy as Japan?

It isn't. But we don't follow the customs of courtesy of our own country, either...

WHATEVER dude! I suppose you think that's clever?

No, just appropriate for placing your comments regarding martial studies into context. :asian:

See, here in America we have this little thing called FREEDOM, and I have the full God given right to say whatever the hell I want to, regardless of how much training I have.

Or how old you are, how right you are, how wrong or misinformed you may be, etc. And, interestingly enough, so do I...

There's plenty of American martial artists that have kicked the living crap out of "Traditional" practioners in the style of their native country. So don't start with me about how "ignorant" we are. Apparently we customize WELL, and the inappropriate use of the word Sensei, or our "wonderful ignorance" in bowing, or not following Zen Budhism hasn't stopped us from successful progression.

And any of that has bearing on the issue of American rudeness and lack of background knowledge how? That we can "kick the crap" out of people who are aware of their own cultural expressions that we pretend to use but are ignorant of? And I am not really sure what Zen Buddhism (note the spelling - 2 "d's", not one...) has to do with this...

Do you feel that there's only ONE reason to study M.A?

Yes. The right way. And that means to leave nothing unstudied, no area of knowledge or learning untapped... To do any less is to accept a lower standard, and lower standards cheapen what we do...

Why oh why would asian traditions or history factor in things in ANY way?!?!

Because they place things into a contextual relationship that allows you to understand why you do Thing A and not Thing B... Go ask your teacher(s) these same questions. I would be interested in their answers...

Gambarimasu.

 

[sweeper]

I meant the nod of the head in genneral american culture.

 

[Matt Stone]

The nod is a decreased bow. Dead on the money, sweeper.

The salute in common military use evolved from a number of different sources. The Roman Legions practiced striking the chest with the weapon hand to show allegiance to their superiors. The knights of medieval Europe extended an open weapon hand to show they were unarmed. While armored, they used their weapon hand to raise their visor to show their face, thus displaying a non-violent intent to whomever they were greeting. In colonial America, it was considered a polite greeting for one man to remove his hat to another (and it is still considered impolite to wear a hat indoors, but tell kids that these days and they will roll their eyes and complain), and this gradually changed into a tipping of the cap.

Note: All of these practices could include an optional bow.

 

[lifewise]

I would like to start by saying I appreciate all opinions on topics I post on Martial Talk. It is vitally important that we remain friendly here. There is no value to this forum if we don't.

The fact that this thread has taken this path is discouraging to me.

We are all entitled to our opinions and views - just as my neighbour was to hers. However wrong I thought she was ... it was obvious that changing her mind was not something that could be done. I really don't think it was my place to tell her she was wrong, just as it wasn't her place to tell me my practice of the martial arts was sinister.

Please gentlemen, I found both of your original opinions/posts to be of value - and sincerely appreciate Sweeper's attempt to bring this back on track. asian: Thanks Sweeper)

Respectfully,