Hey Brian---missed this post, sorry---could you say a bit more about NAPMA?---I've not heard of it. What's the deal with them? Who set them up and what was their intended role in MA instruction?
Regulating Martial Arts Instruction
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Hey Brian---missed this post, sorry---could you say a bit more about NAPMA?---I've not heard of it. What's the deal with them? Who set them up and what was their intended role in MA instruction?
Yes, that thought has been nagging at me. You are either in too deep to be neutral or you are out too far to know anything.
Right again---by the time you get knowledgeable enough to be able to have a well-argued position on how things should be done, you've lost your `neutrality'. In skiing, and maybe scuba, things are different because there never was that explosive proliferation of styles and different strategies all of which have some claim to validity. In skiing, the differences where that racers from certain countries discovered certain things first---it came down to particular individuals experimenting, becoming successful, and their teammate picking up on it and then the ski schools of that country saying, you see, it's only the French/Austrian/Italian/Swedish/etc racers who can win, so you'd better demand a French/Austrian/.... ski instructor if you want to learn how to ski well. Patrick Roussel discovers absorbtion/continuous contact with the hill and voila, we have the French Style, three gold medals for Killy, and a zillion dollars for schools that teach avalement. The joke of course is that a year later, every racer in the world has learned avalement, and they're off doing something new---stepping to adjust the line; then suddenly it's the Italians who are the kings of the hill... but within another year, everyone catches up. Ski `styles' don't really exist, and never did. Racers have no pride and no nationalism; if they see something works for one racer, they try it out and if it works, it becomes their own. All professional skiers use the same techniques. It just isn't the same as MA. I think I probably was wrong to bring in the PSIA example, just for that reason...[/QUOTE]
I agree. There are problems for sure in the martial arts, and one of the biggest is that it's hard to tell just how serious or damaging the other problems are.
I had the idea a couple of weeks ago that maybe what we need is a kind of Angies' List category for MAs. I mean, Angie lists all kinds of services, why not MA instruction? But it was quite correctly pointed out to me that people in a particular school will very likely love it even if it is a McDoj., because they don't know enough to see that they aren't getting any kind of rigor or depth in their training.
I do think there should be some kind of Baddies List available for MA places. But I have no clue about how it would work in practice. Everyone reading this thread, and on MT generally, will pretty much be able to come to fairly accurate conclusions about how good a place is just from talking to a couple of instructional staff there and watching a few classes in action. But the people who you want to protect---people like the one whose child Iceman now has to deal with because his parents were fed a line by the McDojang owners they went to about KKW poom cert for their son---they really don't have a clue that anything is wrong till something really goes wrong. They'd be very likely the ones writing ecstatic praise for the McDoj. programs they're in. It really isn't the same as when the guy screws up your shower re-tiling job. Angie's is great for that kind of thing, but for substandard dojs. ... probably not.
I dislike the idea of the goverment regulating or saying who can or can not teach.
i wish the laws where a little bit easier on those that close done McDojo's and fakes. personaly I know way to many with false certs that have students who have no idea that their instructor made up or bought their rank or liniage I have a deep dislike for fakes Lets just say i think they should be closed down some how
sorry I think to say more would violate MT rules
i wish the laws where a little bit easier on those that close done McDojo's and fakes. personaly I know way to many with false certs that have students who have no idea that their instructor made up or bought their rank or liniage I have a deep dislike for fakes Lets just say i think they should be closed down some how
sorry I think to say more would violate MT rules
?? But couldn't you give us more of an idea what you had in mind without getting into Bad Territory...?
OK, on the one hand you don't want more gov't regulation, and most people on this thread seem to feel that way too. But you also think fakes should be shut down... like, if an MA school deliberately deceives their members. What's the bridge between the two?
Sirius
White Belt
That's true. In a practical sense, starting a dojang is like starting any business and it isn't the gov'ts job to regulate it. In the spirit of free enterprise, the marketplace will weed out undesirable instructors.
I'm a bit late on this one so here goes my perspective, there cann ot be a standard to be an instructor of said martial Arts for the simple reason, we have to many style to regulate and to many different appoaching to MA. No one agency can control over 10000 styles that people make up everyday.
For example I can create a stle called couch potatoe, I can sit on the couch make a few moves and open a beer and fall asleep until morning it find some idiot to except the style I created.
So as you can see how do you regulate someting that I create if people want to me pay me to learn there business.
America land of the rich and home for all suckers
For example I can create a stle called couch potatoe, I can sit on the couch make a few moves and open a beer and fall asleep until morning it find some idiot to except the style I created.
So as you can see how do you regulate someting that I create if people want to me pay me to learn there business.
America land of the rich and home for all suckers
Here you go. This is a link to their website : http://www.napma.com/ .
I believe they went bankrupt and then changed hands but I am not absolutely sure on this. I know multiple instructors who run Dojo's and Dojang's who used to swear by NAPMA! Personally while they offer some good information I can get the same info for free in other places.
Unfortunately, this isn't true. The fact that Ashida Kim and other frauds are able to attract students just doesn't bear this out. Some people just want a fantasy, not real training, and the frauds provide that.
Gotcha---thanks, that was quite interesting. What it reminded me of was the fitness industry and all these different `certifying' associations for personal trainers---it's like an alphabet soup of orgs, and the real problem is knowing how professional they really are---are they the real deal or do they just have fancy graphics and good web designers and so on? Checking them out isn't easy to do unless you already know a lot about the whole training scene...and if you're at that point you probably know pretty much all you need to know anyway. I gather from what you say that NAPMA might still be in business [?]
I'm still not sure why ski instruction in North America wound up going such a different route. The difference may have been that the ski hill owners liked the PSIA setup. Anyone can open his/her own doj., but you can only ski on the mountains that are there and have facilities. It's like in baseball or hockey or any other pro sport---if the owners figure out what they think is good for all their bottom lines, that's what you're going to see. And that's probably the reason why you never will get any kind of setup comparable to what you have in skiing going on in the MAs. Ah well, let Chaos reign! :wink1:
Yes with the ski industry I am sure that the owners of the mountains had alot to do with what was going on. I believe NAPMA is still going after a change in ownership, bankruptcy or whatever happened. I see it as an organization that is attempting to do good things and puts out some decent material but unfortunately it is also about making a big buck for their organization. For me I do not need any more drains on my training halls funds after taxes, insurance, rent, etc. What I make goes straight back into Research and Development and equipment. Plus most of the material that organizations like NAPMA have is available for free if you are willing to search for it.
Who is to say what passes / does not pass in a particular martial arts system? If the person deciding is doing this for his own system, then that's his choice, and his business, not mine.
At the same time, what if his criteria are vastly different, and even conflicting, with another school's methods? This could easily create an unpleasant situation, that could close such a school.
Different styles use different methods. What works well for one might not necessarily work well for another. This is why it's best to let each style police itself.
On another note, we need to look at certain unpleasant possibilities. What if someone the likes of Count Dante were appointed to that position? What if someone like Ashida Kim were appointed to that position? What if Frank Dux somehow found his way into that spot?
The original poster's idea has good intentions, but often times, such intentions pave the road to a certain unpleasant place.
At the same time, what if his criteria are vastly different, and even conflicting, with another school's methods? This could easily create an unpleasant situation, that could close such a school.
Different styles use different methods. What works well for one might not necessarily work well for another. This is why it's best to let each style police itself.
On another note, we need to look at certain unpleasant possibilities. What if someone the likes of Count Dante were appointed to that position? What if someone like Ashida Kim were appointed to that position? What if Frank Dux somehow found his way into that spot?
The original poster's idea has good intentions, but often times, such intentions pave the road to a certain unpleasant place.
I think that probably a lot people wind up making the decision in that direction. It's a trade-off. The fact that there's a lot of really good info publically available kind of tips the balance in favor of a do-it-yourself approach. You just have to be careful in evaluating what's out there.
What do they call it in the home improvement/renovation world---`sweat equity?'---you do your own work and you save a huge amount. I know who puts out good research and good demo vids and so on, and can follow up on leads. The good thing about doing it that way is that you are always following your own sense of what makes sense and what doesn't. But some people probably like a central source that does that kind of thing for them---to each, his/her own, in the end.
KempoFlow
Yellow Belt
I strongly disagree. I feel that most parents spend what money they do have on their children first and take care of themselves last. I enrolled both of my children in MA before I began taking classes myself. In fact if money gets tight again, I will be the one putting my practice on hold I would not take my children out of class before me.
I feel that there is a need for SOME regulation of martial arts schools -- especially if they offer day-care/day-camp type programs for children. I'm not suggesting that it would be practical or feasible to assess skills to teach -- but that, especially when they work with kids like that, the programs need to meet some criteria such as background checks for instructors/leaders, maximum number of people to be supervised, first aid training and so on, just like for any other day care provider.
Otherwise - I just don't think that there's a good way to address the numerous ways that martial arts are taught (personal students, non-commericially, "semi-pro" classes as part of rec programs, commercial schools and all the other ways I couldn't describe so briefly!)
You know, I remember a late night commercial I saw on a tape recorded in the early 1990s. A man dressed in a business suit began by talking about the "extreme dangers" of Filipino martial arts, which he also felt were in some way historically fraudulent, then the commercial switched to shots of his TKD training hall and his students kicking boards.
I remember a petition that someone brought up a scan of from the 1980s calling for a ban on SAMBO because it came from the Soviet Union.
I remember the attempts that still continue to the present to ban mixed martial arts.
I remember a karate instructor who tried to have all the Silat schools in Chicago formally disrecomended by the Better Business Bureau.
The fact that we still have FMA, SAMBO, MMA, and Silat is due to the lack of power these people had in the halls of government. Put them together on a commission to regulate martial arts, and they may well have banned them all as dangerous and fraudulent.
I remember a petition that someone brought up a scan of from the 1980s calling for a ban on SAMBO because it came from the Soviet Union.
I remember the attempts that still continue to the present to ban mixed martial arts.
I remember a karate instructor who tried to have all the Silat schools in Chicago formally disrecomended by the Better Business Bureau.
The fact that we still have FMA, SAMBO, MMA, and Silat is due to the lack of power these people had in the halls of government. Put them together on a commission to regulate martial arts, and they may well have banned them all as dangerous and fraudulent.
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers. For all we know, this type of regulation could someday be tacked on to the Patriot Act for crying out loud.
It seems what needs regulating are the "non-Martial Arts" schools. By that I mean, the day-cares, after-school kids programs, sign here on the line for the next three years, Black Belt club contract house title lien Martial Art schools. These aren't martial art schools. It looks (a little) like martial arts, they pass it off as martial arts, it says martial arts on the window, the backs of the uniforms, on the bumper stickers, but it aint Martial Arts.
If you want to teach in the Public Educational System, you most likely go through a thorough background check, have to meet all sorts of qualifications, actually GO TO A SCHOOL to learn what you are going to teach, but with the "non-Martial Arts" schools, any Joe and open up, join an association, and begin taking in the greenbacks.
That's what DOES need regulating are not the (real) Martial Arts schools.
It seems what needs regulating are the "non-Martial Arts" schools. By that I mean, the day-cares, after-school kids programs, sign here on the line for the next three years, Black Belt club contract house title lien Martial Art schools. These aren't martial art schools. It looks (a little) like martial arts, they pass it off as martial arts, it says martial arts on the window, the backs of the uniforms, on the bumper stickers, but it aint Martial Arts.
If you want to teach in the Public Educational System, you most likely go through a thorough background check, have to meet all sorts of qualifications, actually GO TO A SCHOOL to learn what you are going to teach, but with the "non-Martial Arts" schools, any Joe and open up, join an association, and begin taking in the greenbacks.
That's what DOES need regulating are not the (real) Martial Arts schools.
There's a huge difference between not seeing how something can be bad and it being good...
And I can see plenty of ways a licensing program such as you describe can go wrong. Bribery to waive/overlook/provide certifications of meeting the requirements just to begin with. Arguments and disputes over what constitutes a creditable hour; does an hour of solo practice in the gym count towards certification? How do you track that?
In short -- just because something can be done, and might not be bad, doesn't mean it would be good.
I'm a cop. Let me tell you how that "small" burden, as you're suggesting it, would work out. You'd file paperwork, the investigating agency would look it over and that'd be about it. And, in some states, the process you seem to be envisioning isn't even legal! (A teacher's "background check" is really just running their fingerprints against the national records, in most cases.) The public, in VA, for example, can only get the criminal history from & with the agency their asking in VA. If you want a "full" criminal history, unless you fall under law enforcement purposes, you need to go to each place they've lived. And, it's only minimally effective to protect kids, as the fact that there remain numerous cases of day care providers and teachers abusing kids despite the various requirements and checks shows. A background check casts only some light on what a person will do, since it only looks at what they've been CAUGHT doing before. There is also the whole issue of paying for someone to do this background investigation... The cops do happen to have a few other things to do...
I disagree with this, as well. Many martial arts teachers are respected business men & women in their communities and their schools have solid reputations among the public.
Regulation does not equal professionalism. Boxing is a heavily regulated sport, but it's also (sadly) earned the reputation as sporting's red light neighborhood.
I'm not opposed to any and all governmental involvement in martial arts. I want schools that effectively operate day care programs to be regulated like day care programs, because I've seen some serious and frightening actions in these programs. (Like taking the kids, without parental knowledge, to a neighborhood park, and failing to bring them ALL back to the school, and not even realizing this until the police had found the kid and contacted his parents...)
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
That is what will probably happen. But the intention is to make it so it is harder to open a mcdojo. Look at Japan. Almost no mcdojos, mostly because you have to be a third degree black belt in a reputable association. And you lose that status if you open a mcdojo.
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