Rear Leg Side Kick

[skribs]

Oddly, in the mainstream NGA curriculum, there is ONLY a rear leg side kick. The round kick comes in both rear leg and slide-up (front leg), but no front leg version for th side kick. And because of this, you rarely see a side kick of any sort in sparring. I've been trying to develop my front leg kick to usable standards.

I'd be interested in seeing a video of what you mean with #3 - I'm not quite picturing what you're describing here.

I need to go back and look at #4. We have a crescent kick, but it's pretty much never used (and I stopped teaching it some time ago). This might open up some possibilities with it. Maybe time to reconsider that kick.

None of these videos are mine.

Non-Rear Leg Side Kicks:

Step-Behind Side Kick (uses original front leg)

Check Side Kick

#3 - Watch at 1:30.

Crescent Kick to Side Kick (I really want to emphasize that this isn't my video)

 

[dvcochran]

I don't know those terms. We tend to use a 45-degree (parallel feet) stance as the starting point for sparring.

If you are in a fighting stance, is one shoulder or both shoulders facing your opponent? It sounds like you may be somewhere in the middle?

 

[Buka]

Kinda like a drag version of the flying side kick?

Never thought of it that way before, but yeah!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are in a fighting stance, is one shoulder or both shoulders facing your opponent? It sounds like you may be somewhere in the middle?

Yes. If you consider fully-facing (both shoulders) as 0 degrees, and side-on (one shoulder) as 90 degrees, we are at 45 degrees.

If you're by an chance familiar with the Japanese hanmi stance ("half stance"), then you've seen the angle of the body, just with different footwork.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

None of these videos are mine.

Non-Rear Leg Side Kicks:

Step-Behind Side Kick (uses original front leg)

Check Side Kick

#3 - Watch at 1:30.

Crescent Kick to Side Kick (I really want to emphasize that this isn't my video)

Thanks. I'll try to watch those tomorrow. Our data is running low on the "good" connection, and the other two are just being crap right now.

 

[skribs]

Thanks. I'll try to watch those tomorrow. Our data is running low on the "good" connection, and the other two are just being crap right now.

Sorry. I forgot you live in a third world county.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

county.

Can't tell if that's a typo or a clever joke.

 

[skribs]

Can't tell if that's a typo or a clever joke.

It was intentional.

 

[dvcochran]

Yes. If you consider fully-facing (both shoulders) as 0 degrees, and side-on (one shoulder) as 90 degrees, we are at 45 degrees.

If you're by an chance familiar with the Japanese hanmi stance ("half stance"), then you've seen the angle of the body, just with different footwork.

I am somewhat familiar. The base looks similar to a classic boxer's stance but it looks much more rooted.
I think it would be a good position to throw the rear leg from since your feet are close to each, your front foot is pointed forwardish, and you are forward biased. It would take a good amount of shift to get the front leg up. If the opponent is pressing you it would be a complimenting stance to move the rear leg back and chamber the front leg for a jam or more powerful front leg kick.
We use an expression; 'Get Tall' meaning use the full length or your body in the kick. I think this is a primary difference in a Korean kick vs. a Japanese/Okinawan kick that keeps the body lower and smaller.

I used to go to quite a few open tournaments and saw what appeared to be the similar 45° stance but with a more defensive posture I think. It was pretty much all hands, all the time. If a kick came it was from the rear leg but usually there was little to no penetration. The body never shifted forward and the foot was back on the floor very fast. Clearly a different kicking philosophy. It always left the hands available for a technique at any moment.
I always enjoyed competing against different styles and trying to figure out of to be successful against them. It did not always work out that way but it was always a good experience. Good times.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am somewhat familiar. The base looks similar to a classic boxer's stance but it looks much more rooted.
I think it would be a good position to throw the rear leg from since your feet are close to each, your front foot is pointed forwardish, and you are forward biased. It would take a good amount of shift to get the front leg up. If the opponent is pressing you it would be a complimenting stance to move the rear leg back and chamber the front leg for a jam or more powerful front leg kick.
We use an expression; 'Get Tall' meaning use the full length or your body in the kick. I think this is a primary difference in a Korean kick vs. a Japanese/Okinawan kick that keeps the body lower and smaller.

I used to go to quite a few open tournaments and saw what appeared to be the similar 45° stance but with a more defensive posture I think. It was pretty much all hands, all the time. If a kick came it was from the rear leg but usually there was little to no penetration. The body never shifted forward and the foot was back on the floor very fast. Clearly a different kicking philosophy. It always left the hands available for a technique at any moment.
I always enjoyed competing against different styles and trying to figure out of to be successful against them. It did not always work out that way but it was always a good experience. Good times.

Hmm...so, the stance limits some use of the front foot? I'm wondering if that's why I can't figure out how to make better use of anything but a snap kick from the front leg. I've been working off and on for a while to try to improve my use of kicking, so I can teach it better. I really need to spend some time with a kicking specialist at some point to better understand some of this.

 

[skribs]

Hmm...so, the stance limits some use of the front foot? I'm wondering if that's why I can't figure out how to make better use of anything but a snap kick from the front leg. I've been working off and on for a while to try to improve my use of kicking, so I can teach it better. I really need to spend some time with a kicking specialist at some point to better understand some of this.

One example of this is regarding the "stiff-arm" kicks. There's a version for both side kick and front kick, where you basically put up a straight leg to block your opponent's momentum. From a forward stance I'd use the front kick, from a back stance I'd use the side kick version. There isn't really a benefit to one over the other, except I'm already facing that way.

I am somewhat familiar. The base looks similar to a classic boxer's stance but it looks much more rooted.
I think it would be a good position to throw the rear leg from since your feet are close to each, your front foot is pointed forwardish, and you are forward biased. It would take a good amount of shift to get the front leg up. If the opponent is pressing you it would be a complimenting stance to move the rear leg back and chamber the front leg for a jam or more powerful front leg kick.
We use an expression; 'Get Tall' meaning use the full length or your body in the kick. I think this is a primary difference in a Korean kick vs. a Japanese/Okinawan kick that keeps the body lower and smaller.

I used to go to quite a few open tournaments and saw what appeared to be the similar 45° stance but with a more defensive posture I think. It was pretty much all hands, all the time. If a kick came it was from the rear leg but usually there was little to no penetration. The body never shifted forward and the foot was back on the floor very fast. Clearly a different kicking philosophy. It always left the hands available for a technique at any moment.
I always enjoyed competing against different styles and trying to figure out of to be successful against them. It did not always work out that way but it was always a good experience. Good times.

On the other hand, when you get good at shifting your weight the gap between stances closes rapidly. That's one of the big benefits for the Palgwe forms over the Taegeuks in my opinion (at least, the versions we do at my school), is there's a lot of shifts from front stance to back stance or vice versa. The Taegeuk forms use a shorter back stance, so it becomes a step instead of a shift. When I switch from back to front stance in Taegeuk #3, I'm stepping out with the front foot. When I switch in the Palgwe forms, I'm basically just pivoting my rear foot.

 

[dvcochran]

Hmm...so, the stance limits some use of the front foot? I'm wondering if that's why I can't figure out how to make better use of anything but a snap kick from the front leg. I've been working off and on for a while to try to improve my use of kicking, so I can teach it better. I really need to spend some time with a kicking specialist at some point to better understand some of this.

I might say more dictates rather than limits. There are just certain things you can/cannot do from a given stance. I feel this is a good point to having lots of tools in your tool belt. This includes variations of the same kick.

 

[skribs]

I might say more dictates rather than limits. There are just certain things you can/cannot do from a given stance. I feel this is a good point to having lots of tools in your tool belt. This includes variations of the same kick.

That's only if your stances are static. If you're moving, it's quite easy to adjust as you start to chamber.

 

[dvcochran]

That's only if your stances are static. If you're moving, it's quite easy to adjust as you start to chamber.

For purposes of identifying the stance in question, they have to be looked at from a static position, else there is no starting point for the conversation.
Fluidity within the stance would be in the tool belt comment I made earlier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's only if your stances are static. If you're moving, it's quite easy to adjust as you start to chamber.

If you can flow to the mechanics of a more suitable stance, that’s true. We (NGA as I’ve seen it) tend to train sparring almost exclusively in that stance. My personal approach is a bit different and more flexible, but still doesn’t have the mechanics (I think) of a side-on stance to work from.

 

[skribs]

If you can flow to the mechanics of a more suitable stance, that’s true. We (NGA as I’ve seen it) tend to train sparring almost exclusively in that stance. My personal approach is a bit different and more flexible, but still doesn’t have the mechanics (I think) of a side-on stance to work from.

I think I had the discussion on reddit, but basically someone was saying it's stupid to do a down block, because you're leaving your face uncovered. Same applies to the typical Karate/Taekwondo position of chambering your hand at your hip. What I've found is that I can bring my hand up to cover up my ear almost as fast from any of the positions. The actual motion is fast. If I'm going from the guard position it's mainly just swinging the shoulder (because I just have to point my elbow up), where from the hip or from a down block there's a twisting of the wrist or bend at the elbow that does half the work of closing the gap.

Now, that's not to say that I think we should abandon a proper guard. Just that if your hand is momentarily down, it's not the end of the world. Ideally if you're not actively doing something with your hand, it will come back up to guard.

What I think @dvcochran is referring two is two things:

• Where is your weight
• What is the orientation of your foot and body

If your weight is on the front foot, all front-leg kicks become harder. If you're pointed forward instead of sideways, front kicks become easier than side kicks (and vice versa). But for me, it becomes the same thing as covering my ear. Doing a front-leg side kick with my feet pointing straight means I pivot my rear foot as I chamber. It's one extra step, but the step is done simultaneously with other steps and doesn't really change much.

Kind of like driving a stick vs. driving an automatic. There's more involved in driving a stick, but it's not like you're gonna turn a 30-minute drive into an hour commute by driving stick.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think I had the discussion on reddit, but basically someone was saying it's stupid to do a down block, because you're leaving your face uncovered.

When/how did you lose your other arm? I'm sorry for your loss, but congrats on overcoming the disability.

 

[skribs]

When/how did you lose your other arm? I'm sorry for your loss, but congrats on overcoming the disability.

Are you referring to me or to the person who said you can't down block without leaving your face uncovered?

And yes, I do find that if you're actively parrying, one hand pretty much does the job of two. Even when I have both hands up, it's usually one hand going back and forth instead of both hands doing the parrying.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are you referring to me or to the person who said you can't down block without leaving your face uncovered?

Does it matter, when my statement was clearly silly? Assume it was directed at whomever makes you feel best.

And yes, I do find that if you're actively parrying, one hand pretty much does the job of two. Even when I have both hands up, it's usually one hand going back and forth instead of both hands doing the parrying.

Every movement closes options and opens new ones.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think I had the discussion on reddit, but basically someone was saying it's stupid to do a down block, because you're leaving your face uncovered. Same applies to the typical Karate/Taekwondo position of chambering your hand at your hip. What I've found is that I can bring my hand up to cover up my ear almost as fast from any of the positions. The actual motion is fast. If I'm going from the guard position it's mainly just swinging the shoulder (because I just have to point my elbow up), where from the hip or from a down block there's a twisting of the wrist or bend at the elbow that does half the work of closing the gap.

Now, that's not to say that I think we should abandon a proper guard. Just that if your hand is momentarily down, it's not the end of the world. Ideally if you're not actively doing something with your hand, it will come back up to guard.

What I think @dvcochran is referring two is two things:

• Where is your weight
• What is the orientation of your foot and body

If your weight is on the front foot, all front-leg kicks become harder. If you're pointed forward instead of sideways, front kicks become easier than side kicks (and vice versa). But for me, it becomes the same thing as covering my ear. Doing a front-leg side kick with my feet pointing straight means I pivot my rear foot as I chamber. It's one extra step, but the step is done simultaneously with other steps and doesn't really change much.

Kind of like driving a stick vs. driving an automatic. There's more involved in driving a stick, but it's not like you're gonna turn a 30-minute drive into an hour commute by driving stick.

I think the stick vs. automatic may be valid for another reason. Someone who drives stick can pretty easily go back and forth between them. But someone who only drives automatic doesn't have an easy path to the transition, even for making good use of the auto-stick feature on a lot of cars. Think of me when kicking as someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick. I don't have the use of that side-stance kicking mechanic, so I have nothing to shift my body into (that it knows) from the 45-degree stance. Does that make sense? So, for me, the idea of just making the shift with a pivot while chambering is asking my body to do (while chambering) something it hasn't the training for.