Reality / Pressure testing

[Jake104]

Yip man wasn't a believer in sparring - he encouraged his students to fight, there is a big big difference between fighting and sparring and fighting is illegal in most societies today.
If you go into MMA, MT or boxing gyms around here you will never get started if you stop every time "things get out of hand" and I disagree massively that you can't teach someone to fight if you've never gone out looking for fights. Firstly there are plenty of other ways to get far more real experience even if unintentional and secondly some of the best boxing coaches in the world were not fighters themselves
I don't disagree that sparring with other disciplines can be useful but unless you want to enter competition its not the be all and end all. If you want to experience real fighting a door job is far more useful.

What other ways of getting real experience aside from sparring or fighting are you speaking of? Yes boxing coaches may not all be fighters or fight themselves. But they do produce people who fight, and sparring/ fighting with pressure is the main part of there training. In Wing Chun you could argue that instead of producing fighters we produce only other coaches/Sifu's and the fighting part is lost...

 

[hunt1]

Wow Ian. You must be one of those that believes Wing Chun gives magical powers.


All activities require the actual doing of that activity to learn it. You can spend every day taking golf instruction and hitting the range, unless you go and actually play you will never learn the game. You can spend all day every day speaking in front of a mirror but until you stand up in front of groups and speak you will never be a good public speaker. There are no exceptions and there is no substitute for experience in anything.

There is far more to wing chun than forms chi sau and partner drills. To learn to fight you have to fight period.Fighting does not mean life or death kill the other guy. it can be that but you don't learn from that.

Every boxing coach I have ever met has actually boxed. Never heard of a coach anywhere that just learned from a teacher and never got into the ring themselves. You don't have to be a great fighter but you must of the experience .

What you can do against a trained fighter you can do against a drunk in a bar. Just because you can deal with a drunk in a crowded bar with a couple of other blokes at your back does not mean you will have any ability to handle a trained fighter.

The only difference between fighting and real sparring is intent. Since the point is to learn how to use the skills you have been taught trying to kill each other is counter productive. As your skill level rises your intent can and should rise as long as you are facing someone of similar skill and desire.

As far as what is legal getting into a ring at a MMA school with a willing opponent is legal everywhere. Far different than sucker punching and assaulting some one on the street. I did not advocate attacking strangers on the street. Finding willing training partners that want to hone their skills is what one should be doing.

As far as Yip Man. His students tried their skills against trained resisting opponents from other arts in a competitive ,for that time and place ,format. The same thing that I advocate. Today the standards are far higher and those that rely on dreaming that because their teachers teacher supposedly won some fights does not mean that you will have any skill at all. The fact that some were bullies and jerks and instigated street fights does not mean all did that or that that was or is the best way to learn how to fight.


The world is full of MMA schools where the students train daily to take down and roll at almost full intensity. They get into a ring with protective gear and actually hit each other. They actually practice and train the same skills the will use in a fight.

Most wing chun people chi sau ,do some partner drills ,play with the dummy and hit some bags have a partner with no boxing skills throw some round punches etc have someone with no take down skills try to take them down ,have themselves a few minutes of wing vs wing chun centerline charging with chain punches and think they have real skills.


Under today's standards until you step into a ring with some MMA students and can hold your own with wing chun you don't have much. Only way to learn that is to do that. Playing with classmates and tossing drunks and bully boys is not a substitute.

 

[mook jong man]

Wow Ian. You must be one of those that believes Wing Chun gives magical powers.


All activities require the actual doing of that activity to learn it. You can spend every day taking golf instruction and hitting the range, unless you go and actually play you will never learn the game. You can spend all day every day speaking in front of a mirror but until you stand up in front of groups and speak you will never be a good public speaker. There are no exceptions and there is no substitute for experience in anything.

There is far more to wing chun than forms chi sau and partner drills. To learn to fight you have to fight period.Fighting does not mean life or death kill the other guy. it can be that but you don't learn from that.

Every boxing coach I have ever met has actually boxed. Never heard of a coach anywhere that just learned from a teacher and never got into the ring themselves. You don't have to be a great fighter but you must of the experience .

What you can do against a trained fighter you can do against a drunk in a bar. Just because you can deal with a drunk in a crowded bar with a couple of other blokes at your back does not mean you will have any ability to handle a trained fighter.

The only difference between fighting and real sparring is intent. Since the point is to learn how to use the skills you have been taught trying to kill each other is counter productive. As your skill level rises your intent can and should rise as long as you are facing someone of similar skill and desire.

As far as what is legal getting into a ring at a MMA school with a willing opponent is legal everywhere. Far different than sucker punching and assaulting some one on the street. I did not advocate attacking strangers on the street. Finding willing training partners that want to hone their skills is what one should be doing.

As far as Yip Man. His students tried their skills against trained resisting opponents from other arts in a competitive ,for that time and place ,format. The same thing that I advocate. Today the standards are far higher and those that rely on dreaming that because their teachers teacher supposedly won some fights does not mean that you will have any skill at all. The fact that some were bullies and jerks and instigated street fights does not mean all did that or that that was or is the best way to learn how to fight.


The world is full of MMA schools where the students train daily to take down and roll at almost full intensity. They get into a ring with protective gear and actually hit each other. They actually practice and train the same skills the will use in a fight.

Most wing chun people chi sau ,do some partner drills ,play with the dummy and hit some bags have a partner with no boxing skills throw some round punches etc have someone with no take down skills try to take them down ,have themselves a few minutes of wing vs wing chun centerline charging with chain punches and think they have real skills.


Under today's standards until you step into a ring with some MMA students and can hold your own with wing chun you don't have much. Only way to learn that is to do that. Playing with classmates and tossing drunks and bully boys is not a substitute.

Even if you do all that it's still quite limited and artificial isn't it.

Your still only practicing against someone on probably soft mats in perfect lighting conditions , you know he's not going to pull a knife out halfway through the sparring match or his girlfriend's going to come over and hit you over the head with a bottle.

You probably won't be wearing shoes either , so there goes the effectiveness of your low heel kick to the shin out the window , one of the best attacks to use before engaging with the hands or to keep someone out of punching range.

It's very good training to be sure , but still about as one dimensional as training Wing Chun vs Wing Chun attacks , it is the same as all other training it has limitations.

I think that scenario type training is a better way to bridge the gap to address the needs of the Wing Chun practitioner in preparing for street assaults.

As for the issue of having someone teach you that has been in a lot of fights , that is all well and good.
But more often than not the qualities that caused them to get into a lot of fights are also the ones that can make them not too nice a person or even a good teacher.

They can have a lot of ego and really can't be bothered helping the lowly plebs out too much in refining their techniques , or really aren't that good at explaining how the technique works.

At the other extreme you get the walking Funk and Wagnalls who can tell you the ins and outs of every technique but can't themselves apply it , but they can explain it to you really well.

I have experienced both types , and the ones that were the best had a blending of the "Pitbull" in them but also an equal amount of the "Engineer".

At the end of the day no matter what type you are taught by it is up to you to summon your aggression and apply your techniques the best you can.
As one of my old instructors used to say "You have to have a bit of the mongrel in you".
I am not so sure that mongrel dog mentality can be instilled into every student , it can be developed to a certain degree , but most of it will come from life experiences , background etc.

 

[Domino]

Wow thanks for the response everyone, I do get hit hard and often which I promote just recently.
I like alot of what has been said regarding my perception of 'realistic' fighting, skimmed through and will go through at dinner time so don't get my wrists whipped by my boss !

 

[WingChunIan]

.

Wow Ian. You must be one of those that believes Wing Chun gives magical powers.

nope, I just live in the real world and don't think that having a nice pre arranged game of bouncing around with a guy who attacks in expected ways, with gloves on in a nice clean soft area under the watchful eyes of plenty of others, where I can stop if "it gets out of hand" gives you magical powers either.

All activities require the actual doing of that activity to learn it. You can spend every day taking golf instruction and hitting the range, unless you go and actually play you will never learn the game. You can spend all day every day speaking in front of a mirror but until you stand up in front of groups and speak you will never be a good public speaker. There are no exceptions and there is no substitute for experience in anything.

I agree to a point but then your aim must be to spar and for me my Wing Chun is not about that

There is far more to wing chun than forms chi sau and partner drills. To learn to fight you have to fight period.Fighting does not mean life or death kill the other guy. it can be that but you don't learn from that.

you should learn from every experience its just that some learning experiences are more painful than others

What you can do against a trained fighter you can do against a drunk in a bar. Just because you can deal with a drunk in a crowded bar with a couple of other blokes at your back does not mean you will have any ability to handle a trained fighter.

sorry but you are just plain wrong, full stop. I know of countless trained fighters who do very well in competition but have had their **** handed to them in the street by guys who've never trained a day in their life. The world is full of hard ba**ards and fighters who won't attack you in the same way as a classically trained fighter.

The only difference between fighting and real sparring is intent.

You seem to have completely over looked the adrenal dump and pre fight rituals that you simply don't get in sparring, as well as the difference in range and go signals, the presence of obstacles, uneven ground, third parties etc etc

Since the point is to learn how to use the skills you have been taught trying to kill each other is counter productive. As your skill level rises your intent can and should rise as long as you are facing someone of similar skill and desire.

and this is where you seem to have misunderstood what Ip Man enouraged, he promoted his students training hard with each other, developing their skills and then testing them against opponents in real fights not in games of tag. The culture of the time in HK and the presence of the Kowloon walled city provided ample opportunity to do so. Today in most parts of the world the law frowns upon such activities. Whilst I agree that sparring can be useful trying to pass it off as a modern equivalent to roof top challenge matches is silly.

As far as what is legal getting into a ring at a MMA school with a willing opponent is legal everywhere. Far different than sucker punching and assaulting some one on the street. I did not advocate attacking strangers on the street. Finding willing training partners that want to hone their skills is what one should be doing.

As far as Yip Man. His students tried their skills against trained resisting opponents from other arts in a competitive ,for that time and place ,format. The same thing that I advocate. Today the standards are far higher and those that rely on dreaming that because their teachers teacher supposedly won some fights does not mean that you will have any skill at all. The fact that some were bullies and jerks and instigated street fights does not mean all did that or that that was or is the best way to learn how to fight.

see my previous comment

The world is full of MMA schools where the students train daily to take down and roll at almost full intensity. They get into a ring with protective gear and actually hit each other. They actually practice and train the same skills the will use in a fight.

and its a great way to train that produces some terrific atheletes and superb one on one fighters, but their goal is not the same as mine, I stopped training for sport when I gave up MT

Most wing chun people chi sau ,do some partner drills ,play with the dummy and hit some bags have a partner with no boxing skills throw some round punches etc have someone with no take down skills try to take them down ,have themselves a few minutes of wing vs wing chun centerline charging with chain punches and think they have real skills.

I presume that your Wing chun class has no-one in it with previous experience of martial arts then, mine has several folks who are well versed in grappling arts and stand up disciplines. I don't disagree with the usefullness of having skilled training partners but finding them with a useful attitude is the trick and it is only part of the puzzle.

Under today's standards until you step into a ring with some MMA students and can hold your own with wing chun you don't have much. Only way to learn that is to do that. Playing with classmates and tossing drunks and bully boys is not a substitute

We are clearly training for different reasons, if your aim is to compete in MMA then you are 100% correct but that is not what the majority of wing chun practitioners are training for. Oh and those drunks and bully boys are far more dangerous than a nicely compliant partner wearing gloves (plus whatever else you wear) and not carrying a weapon or bringing along mates who doesn't have the pain numbing benefits of alcohol and white powder to draw on, and who will only hit you to the front and nowhere that is likely to cause you real damage.

 

[WingChunIan]

What other ways of getting real experience aside from sparring or fighting are you speaking of? Yes boxing coaches may not all be fighters or fight themselves. But they do produce people who fight, and sparring/ fighting with pressure is the main part of there training. In Wing Chun you could argue that instead of producing fighters we produce only other coaches/Sifu's and the fighting part is lost...

Completely agree Jake, thankfully I have several students who do door work and other even less savoury jobs who test what is taught on a regular basis (I also have my own experiences to draw on). Note in my post I didn't say not fighting, I have experience and have never looked for a fight in my life, my own sifu was a proffessional bodyguard but has never had an MMA fight in his life to my knowledge. I just don't believe that sparring is the be all and end all. Get a door job or pressure test what you've been taught by padding up and taking away the rules with multiple assailants in a back alley they both work well. I enjoy sparring with other disciplines and it can be a very, very valuable part of training but it's not the only answer and its not a holy grail that simulates real fighting.

 

[Domino]

MJM summed the situation up very well, the part about adapting to things you haven't read properly, shapes become... out of shape if that makes sense. Also, I like the use of the elbows in Keysi FM / 52blocks that I saw.
Have done irregular sessions with Muay Thai / kickboxing / Gracie Barra BJJ but need to do regular sessions, hopefully soon.
I was always interested in what Carlson Gracie said about wing chun too, to cross train the arts. All this aswell as working on chum kiu more

 

[Cyriacus]

Before I say anything, Im not contradicting You.

nope, I just live in the real world and don't think that having a nice pre arranged game of bouncing around with a guy who attacks in expected ways, with gloves on in a nice clean soft area under the watchful eyes of plenty of others, where I can stop if "it gets out of hand" gives you magical powers either.

A Fair Response. There are people who think Wing Chun = All Powerful though, so be mindful Good Sir

I agree to a point but then your aim must be to spar and for me my Wing Chun is not about that

That ultimately depends on the Sparring Archetype.

you should learn from every experience its just that some learning experiences are more painful than others

Aha.

sorry but you are just plain wrong, full stop. I know of countless trained fighters who do very well in competition but have had their **** handed to them in the street by guys who've never trained a day in their life. The world is full of hard ba**ards and fighters who won't attack you in the same way as a classically trained fighter.

The issue is more that alot of Competitive Fighters get into a Competition Mindset. I approve of Your Conclusion, but the means by which You get to it could use some work.

You seem to have completely over looked the adrenal dump and pre fight rituals that you simply don't get in sparring, as well as the difference in range and go signals, the presence of obstacles, uneven ground, third parties etc etc

Pre Fight Rituals dont always exist. Ive seen plenty a fight start with someone daring to glance at someone else, and paying the price. Additionally, different people react to adrenalin in different ways. Some become inclined to fight until they collapse from Adrenalin, others freak out, others fall in many areas in between, and so forth. Of course, that isnt just Adrenalin. But its at the center of the reaction. Range? You shouldnt need to have a 'Your Range'. Thats silly. A Prefered Range? Sure. Obstacles, Uneven Ground, and Third Parties should be irrelevant. What Youre learning should be usable with any of those three things present.

and this is where you seem to have misunderstood what Ip Man enouraged, he promoted his students training hard with each other, developing their skills and then testing them against opponents in real fights not in games of tag. The culture of the time in HK and the presence of the Kowloon walled city provided ample opportunity to do so. Today in most parts of the world the law frowns upon such activities. Whilst I agree that sparring can be useful trying to pass it off as a modern equivalent to roof top challenge matches is silly.

That said, its as close as You can get. That said again, there are Competitions based around No-Rules Fighting. ...Just perhaps not in Western Countries.

see my previous comment
and its a great way to train that produces some terrific atheletes and superb one on one fighters, but their goal is not the same as mine, I stopped training for sport when I gave up MT

What Theyre learning will work just as well in Real Fighting. IF they are able to get to a place from which to use it, and their Opponent doesnt do something a Trained Fighter would find silly, and thusly breed confusion. Think Thai Clinch + Knees meets Dirty Boxing + Shovel Hooks. Its interesting, but its a weird, weird thing to witness. In their own systems though? Different story.

I presume that your Wing chun class has no-one in it with previous experience of martial arts then, mine has several folks who are well versed in grappling arts and stand up disciplines. I don't disagree with the usefullness of having skilled training partners but finding them with a useful attitude is the trick and it is only part of the puzzle.
We are clearly training for different reasons, if your aim is to compete in MMA then you are 100% correct but that is not what the majority of wing chun practitioners are training for.

And this is where one must be wary with their phrasing. Saying You cant do all of what Youre taught in a Ring because of Rules isnt a good justification. Again - I dont disapprove of the Conclusion, but rather how You got to it. Its also subjective to the MMA Practitioner in question. Generally, folks can get good at fighting by fighting. But not everyone can do that. Its subjective.

Oh and those drunks and bully boys are far more dangerous than a nicely compliant partner wearing gloves (plus whatever else you wear) and not carrying a weapon or bringing along mates who doesn't have the pain numbing benefits of alcohol and white powder to draw on, and who will only hit you to the front and nowhere that is likely to cause you real damage.

And this is where Training Syllabus comes in. You cant dwell on being sucker punched in the back of the head by a coke snorting drunk 20 somethinger with heavy hands and a switchblade with eight mates following in toe. Sure, its possible. But with that mindset, you may as well just stay at home and lock yourself in a metal box for fear of danger. Additionally, most people just think they can fight, because theyve fought other people who think they can fight. Most but not all, certainly. Its a complex issue, that cant be brought down to one possible scenario.

Just My Contribution.

 

[WingChunIan]

Pre Fight Rituals dont always exist. Ive seen plenty a fight start with someone daring to glance at someone else, and paying the price. Additionally, different people react to adrenalin in different ways. Some become inclined to fight until they collapse from Adrenalin, others freak out, others fall in many areas in between, and so forth. Of course, that isnt just Adrenalin. But its at the center of the reaction. Range? You shouldnt need to have a 'Your Range'. Thats silly. A Prefered Range? Sure. Obstacles, Uneven Ground, and Third Parties should be irrelevant. What Youre learning should be usable with any of those three things present

. - My point entirely, sparring is prearranged it starts at a known time from a predictable range, real fights don't.

And this is where Training Syllabus comes in. You cant dwell on being sucker punched in the back of the head by a coke snorting drunk 20 somethinger with heavy hands and a switchblade with eight mates following in toe. Sure, its possible. But with that mindset, you may as well just stay at home and lock yourself in a metal box for fear of danger. Additionally, most people just think they can fight, because theyve fought other people who think they can fight. Most but not all, certainly. Its a complex issue, that cant be brought down to one possible scenario

. Agreed but equally the scenario of ruling out all of the above and thinking that just because you can live with good fighters within a gym environment makes you ready for the street is also futile and arguably a lot more dangerous than paranoia.
To each his own but in my experience, coke snorting is prevalent in most major cities in the UK on a friday and saturday night, as is power drinking and the use of glasses and bottles as weapons is common place. Multiple assailants is also far more common than one on one attacks unless we are talking predatory assault or the event where the initial assailant is winning easily and his mates and passers by choose to watch rather than participate. Personaly I train for the worst and hope for the best whlst realising I'm human and the reailty will probably be somewhere in the middle.

 

[Eric_H]

. - My point entirely, sparring is prearranged it starts at a known time from a predictable range, real fights don't.

No it doesn't, unless you only do it that way or square off in some olmypic style TKD stuff.

There are many categories to sparring, you are choosing to only see one of them.

 

[Cyriacus]

. - My point entirely, sparring is prearranged it starts at a known time from a predictable range, real fights don't.

Unless the Sparring is made to start from an indeterminable Range. A known time, however? Yes. An example of Unarranged Sparring would be Sparring that is barely seperable from a Drill in which the Attacker resists freely.

. Agreed but equally the scenario of ruling out all of the above and thinking that just because you can live with good fighters within a gym environment makes you ready for the street is also futile and arguably a lot more dangerous than paranoia.

Absolutely.

To each his own but in my experience, coke snorting is prevalent in most major cities in the UK on a friday and saturday night, as is power drinking and the use of glasses and bottles as weapons is common place.

Most of the fights ive seen have been Alchohol Induced.

Multiple assailants is also far more common than one on one attacks unless we are talking predatory assault or the event where the initial assailant is winning easily and his mates and passers by choose to watch rather than participate.

Aye - But with Multiple Opponents, how You fight cant change. What I mean is, You shouldnt have a whole seperate fighting style for one attacker, and multiple attackers. If Im faced with 3 people, ill Engage each one the same ways Id Engage one loner. Because the Style Im Applying assumes theres always multiple, even if there isnt. Because their could be. And even so, You should aim to end it fast, regardless. Ill cover the other angle of this in the next part;

Personaly I train for the worst and hope for the best whlst realising I'm human and the reailty will probably be somewhere in the middle.

And this is the other part. You absolutely shouldnt be Training for the Best Case Scenario. Which leads back to Me saying that Your Method, other than Movement, shouldnt change between one and multiple opponents. It should work both ways. And it seems We Agree on that aspecto Good Sir.

*nods

 

[WTchap]

and this is where you seem to have misunderstood what Ip Man enouraged, he promoted his students training hard with each other, developing their skills and then testing them against opponents in real fights not in games of tag. The culture of the time in HK and the presence of the Kowloon walled city provided ample opportunity to do so. Today in most parts of the world the law frowns upon such activities. Whilst I agree that sparring can be useful trying to pass it off as a modern equivalent to roof top challenge matches is silly.

This thread has some complex issues and I find myself agreeing with different things different people say :ultracool. However, in reference to the above quote.... I wouldn't, personally, put too much sway in the HK rooftop fights/challenge matches. Years ago there was a fair amount of footage online, then it seemed to be deleted down to a few video clips on Youtube, and now you can maybe find a few if you search really hard.

From the video footage I saw, these challenge matches were very poor and those who took part looked fairly low in skill level - in no way comparable to fighters we see in amateur events today. And I say amateur because that is what those HK guys looked like. Most of them were also young - looking to be in their late teens/early 20s. So not exactly hugely experienced in the systems they studied (not that it was easy to determine who had studied what ).

I don't want to sound too harsh, but I've seen better fights (better punching and kicking and rough takedowns) in school fights between people with no training whatsoever.

So... WingChunIan is quite right - sparring is not, or shouldn't be, a modern equivalent to roof top challenge matches (thank God!).

 

[Domino]

Theres alot of flower arranging going on.
Just really want to know how you bridge the gap between fighting or self defence in a realistic manner.
Have you tried using tan sau or bong sau in fighting range? ...at the moment doesn't really work for me.

 

[Domino]

Depends what you consider "Pressure" doesn't it mate.

One man's concept of extreme pressure maybe just a "Walk in the park cuddling fluffy puppies to another man.
It's all relative isn't it.

I'm not going to get into the whole going around sparring people of different systems thing , there is certainly merit in that , but most people have trouble enough making time to attend their own school let alone making time time to go to other peoples schools or spar outside of class time.

Most attacks whether they be hand / leg can be categorised as either circular (they will come around either side of your guard ) ie hook punch ,haymaker etc.
Or direct ( straight down your guard) ie jab , Wing Chun centreline punch.
They can also come in high or low ( above your guard or underneath it ).
There is also some overlap in this , a linear strike can also be aimed just off the centreline so it is on the outside of your guard aimed at your cheek bone or eye.
But without complicating it too much , they are basically circular or straight , high or low.

This is where we start to get into the territory of what we call in our lineage "Random Arms" and "Random Legs"
Eventually striving to be able to stop any random attack.

I assume Domino that you have "Four Corner Deflection in your lineage " that should be your first port of call.
Work on stopping circular punches to the head and gut like hooks and uppercuts.

Here are few things I wrote a while ago , they are drills and exercises to develop reflex.
They maybe of some use to you.
Fair bit of reading there mate , but you might find something in there you can use.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?67018-Four-Corner-Deflection&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?90528-Chi-Sau-vs-The-Flurry&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?89648-Reflecting-The-Elbow&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?68775-Reflex-exercise&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?79279-Bong-to-Tan-vs-High-Low-Strike&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...i-pad-to-test-structure-and-stance&highlight=


The important thing to remember is that you start with these drills and ramp up the intensity , they are a stepping stone so that you have the attributes to handle random attack.

But at the end of the day they are only exercises and at some point you must accept that training at close range and realistic speed you will be hit .

It is imperative that you include the random stuff in your training , because this is where you learn to improvise on the "Fly" so to speak.
Such as you think he's going to throw (A) but he throws (B) so in turn you have to convert your original defence to something else in order to not be hit.

The defensive patterned sequences are great for developing a variety of things , but some things can only be developed by going "Random" with the threat of being hit .

Also it's worth remembering that whilst padding up with head gear , mouth guards , gloves , doing rbsd scenarios etc can certainly up the adrenaline level , it is not exactly the same as that horrible feeling of fear and dread that seems to hit you in the pit of the stomach when you've got two big blokes standing in front of you intending to do you harm and you realise you may have to do it for real , they certainly help.

But that feeling is really something you can only deal with the best you can.

Haha thanks for giving the time to reply.
For me pressure is having a suprise attack from punching distance or closer, pressure is a sparring partner going 60-90% and not stopping until he's down and I can flee lol, .... pressure is also emmotional I guess.
Yes I work 4 corner deflection but like what I read about 'random' arms and legs, this is what I need I think. I'm one of these who doesn't mind getting a clip, if you do get a punch/sore nose/runny eyes/bone clash don't stop to powder your nose or accept apologies and graces.... keep training through it.
Thank you for the information and will be putting these into practice Thursday.

 

[Domino]

Nothing against Wing Chun, I am rather impressed by it actually

Spar with styles other than Wing Chun... basically check what you know against what others know... and that goes for any style

Thanks dude, not messed with BJJ lately but finding Muay Thai very interesting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks dude, not messed with BJJ lately but finding Muay Thai very interesting.

One of the best learning experiences I have ever had training MA was way back almost 20 years ago when my first let a bunch of us use his school for free on Saturday afternoons to spar. We had Long Fist people, Aikido people, Southern Mantis, TKD, Karate, Kenpo, Judo, Taiji, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang all represented and sparing those other styles taught me a lot. Southern Mantis taught me to never EVER spar a Southern Mantis person again , I got beat bad… and it was so very cool…painful… but cool.

 

[Domino]

Haha that sounds great.
What did you learn from the experience with the mantis guy?
I got clipped a few times last week but enjoy breaking down where i'm going wrong and then putting it right.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Haha that sounds great.
What did you learn from the experience with the mantis guy?
I got clipped a few times last week but enjoy breaking down where i'm going wrong and then putting it right.

I learned that you should never mess with a southern mantis guy I also learned that he could fall down and spring right back up like a weeble.

I also learned that he had a problem defending against Xingyiquan, I learned Piquan works, but sadly I was so very new at xingyiquan I only knew on thing and that was not enough to not get beat...bad. But like I said it was cool

 

[WCman1976]

It IS a difficult subject. In fact, someone (who will remain nameless) got into a rather disrespectful discussion with me the other day because I said we didn't do any sparring at our school. However, this is because at the moment we have a lot of beginners, and you can't just throw newbies into a free-for-all. Right now we do chi sao and drills where we practice against specific "what if" scenarios.

Having said that, it doesn't mean none of us there (including Sifu) don't understand the value behind free form sparring. Then again, as some of you have already pointed out on this thread, sparring doesn't mean you will be able to handle yourself on the street either. Maybe it is a step closer to "real" fighting than chi sao, but it is still lacking in one thing: the element of surprise.

In a bar, if someone comes up to you and starts talking aggressively and getting in your personal space, there is no way to predict how the situation will go. You can't guarantee he will hit you. Some people are just all talk. Another element of surprise in real fighting is the good old-fashioned sucker punch that some of you have mentioned. Your attacker on the street won't always come at you from the front.

So what way is there to train for "real" combat if every scenario you can legally do is artificial in that one aspect? You can't go out and just antagonize people into attacking you because (1) you will both get taken away and arrested, and I can barely afford my wing chun school's tuition, let alone the bail to get out every time I do a pressure test, and (2) when it comes to light that YOU were the instigator...well, the judge won't like that! The only other thing I can think of would be to go out to a certain part of a city or town with some fellow martial artists, and all of you take turns somehow randomly attacking each other on the streets. (By that I mean one of you takes turns just walking the streets while the others wait to unexpectedly pounce on you.) HOWEVER, you would have a hell of a lot of explaining to do if the cops spotted one of your pressure tests going on!

Just like there is no way to train for every "what if" self-defense scenario, I don't think there is really any way to train for the way fights will really be on the streets...without getting into the legal trouble I mentioned above, of course. But like someone else mentioned, if you dwell on how many scenarios are out there, then you would be better off just staying home. (After all, you can work from home...you can even have groceries delivered to your home!)

In my opinion, I think all that can really be done is to just train, train, train. Speaking from my experience, I train not just for the self-defense but also for the pure love of the art. I want to develop my wing chun so that it works for me, just like I developed skills with writing and guitar. And here we come upon a point I have made before...how I have come to link wing chun to every other form of artistic expression I have engaged in. This might be kind of a stretch to make this analogy, but I will draw a comparison anyway:

When I sit down with a guitar or a pen and piece of paper, I don't think about whether or not the song or story I create will appeal to everyone...much in the same way I don't think about whether or not my wing chun skills will apply to this or that self-defense scenario. I just write because I love writing, and hopefully someone out there will appreciate what I create.

I realize this analogy isn't 100% accurate, but it comes closest to expressing how I feel about this type of debate. Since you can't engage in true 100% authentic street fight experience without getting into REAL street fights (and, therefore, legal trouble), then you might as well train with what you CAN legally do. It IS a big gamble (because what if what you are learning turns out to be crap?), but it is the only thing I see myself able to do. I am married with four kids, so I can't really afford to go out and make someone mad enough to hit me just to prove my training is good.

Sorry for carrying on, but then again it IS a debate that has many dimensions!