Real Violence that's really good, is usually just sloppy Street Boxing

[drop bear]

its a dumb point. because no one said you fight with psychology.

its not a difficult logic to follow here. my thoughs were as follows;
does boxing work every single time in every situation? no....ok then
how often does it effectively end the confrontation?
if you were to believe the Gracie propaganda 90% of all fights go to the ground, which nullifies boxing skills.
so without actual data lets say 50% of the time. now out of that 50% what percent of situations does boxing skills end the confrontation where its not a ground game? well its still not 100% because very often there is a weapon or its as was said earlier a wrench hits you when your not looking. how often is that? as we factor in more and more variables we get a smaller and smaller percentage where boxing skills are applicable. now im not against boxing, its actually my favorite segment of my training. its my go to skill. but i am not willing to put all my eggs in that one basket. i want more skills in my tool box then just boxing. so what skills do we need to learn to deal with that other section of the pie?
until you start to understand the psychology of fighting the attempts to fill in the gaps in your game plan is merely guessing.
is cave man thumping appropriate in every situation...no. just because someone is rude to you at the market, it doesnt warrant a punch in the head. you cant just go around punching people in the head for every slight or comment you find offensive. this is all self evident. i think some people here just argue to argue.

That is the other issue. You don't understand the psychology of fighting though.

Ever seen a 150kg islander in a fight? How much time do you think they have put in to psychology. Yet they seem to have this whole self defense thing locked down.

 

[drop bear]

Sometimes. Sometimes there's no chest-thumping, at all. When there's chest-thumping, it's usually going to follow the predictable pattern, unless derailed.

Which is my experience. Sometimes there is chest thumping. Sometimes there isn't.

Sometimes chest thumping leads to violence sometimes it doesn't.

If a wall of text was needed to explain that I think people are over complicating the issue.

 

[drop bear]

Violence at the end point of the escalation process.

So violence half way through the escalation process.

Violence with no escalation.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Who else knew the guy in the blue short was going to be the attacker from the very beginning of the video?

 

[hoshin1600]

Who else knew the guy in the blue short was going to be the attacker from the very beginning of the video?

No one. That was the point I was trying to make ,which is why i posted that particular video.

 

[RTKDCMB]

No one. That was the point I was trying to make ,which is why i posted that particular video.

Knowing that it was a video of someone commuting an assault it wasn't hard to pick who the attacker was going to be.

 

[hoshin1600]

Knowing that it was a video of someone commuting an assault it wasn't hard to pick who the attacker was going to be.

oh i see what you were asking. i misunderstood. i thought you were asking where the pre assault clues were in the video.

 

[drop bear]

No one. That was the point I was trying to make ,which is why i posted that particular video.

So at no point could she have turned around and punched that guy?

 

[hoshin1600]

So at no point could she have turned around and punched that guy?

Is it possible? Yeah sure but you already got stabbed enough times that your gonna bleed out pretty quick. And as soon as you disengage and gain your footing to punch, the assailant would usually take the opportunity to back off and flee. The damage was already done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is my experience. Sometimes there is chest thumping. Sometimes there isn't.

Sometimes chest thumping leads to violence sometimes it doesn't.

If a wall of text was needed to explain that I think people are over complicating the issue.

What you know intuitively, can also be studied. And there's good reason to do so - sometimes what we "know" turns out not to be quite true. And once it's been studied, some folks like to dig into the detail of it, to understand it better, to see if there's anything more they make use of in it. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.

Personally, I haven't found much use beyond what you just posted. But I watch for folks like Hoshin who are digging around in the information, to see if they can find something more for me. And some folks' minds work better of detail than concept. So, horses for courses (the "courses" in this case being the minds).

 

[drop bear]

What you know intuitively, can also be studied. And there's good reason to do so - sometimes what we "know" turns out not to be quite true. And once it's been studied, some folks like to dig into the detail of it, to understand it better, to see if there's anything more they make use of in it. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.

Personally, I haven't found much use beyond what you just posted. But I watch for folks like Hoshin who are digging around in the information, to see if they can find something more for me. And some folks' minds work better of detail than concept. So, horses for courses (the "courses" in this case being the minds).

Yeah but it think hosin is making a few assumptions that I haven't found to be the case.

Like any clear line between a dominance monkey dance and a predatory attack.

Again except for the obvious. That if you don't give a guy any warning you get a better chance at them.

 

[drop bear]

Is it possible? Yeah sure but you already got stabbed enough times that your gonna bleed out pretty quick. And as soon as you disengage and gain your footing to punch, the assailant would usually take the opportunity to back off and flee. The damage was already done.

So boxing could still be a viable skill even in an ambush attack.

 

[hoshin1600]

So boxing could still be a viable skill even in an ambush attack.

It's only a viable skill after the ambush.
1 boxing does nothing to prevent it, so it has no prior attack relevance

2 you have to survive the initial burst of violence. I think a good cover like a peek a boo boxing type has defense value here but most often you behind the curve and it takes time to orient and start your offense. So after the initial ambush IF the attack is still on going then yes those boxing skills can really come into play. However most people who attack in a predatory ambush are not looking to actually fight. The violence is a method to facilitate a goal. Once you show an offensive, very often they will flee.
I am not saying it's not a good skill to have. I just think in this type of blind sided attack the percentages are low for its use. I actually think grappling has a higher percentage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but it think hosin is making a few assumptions that I haven't found to be the case.

Like any clear line between a dominance monkey dance and a predatory attack.

Again except for the obvious. That if you don't give a guy any warning you get a better chance at them.

I think it depends how we define those two ("dominance monkey dance" and "predatory attack"). I can think of usages that would make a pretty clear distinction, forgiving a few, rare exceptions. It wouldn't match how I look at violence (more nuanced, fewer hard lines between categories), but I could see it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's only a viable skill after the ambush.
1 boxing does nothing to prevent it, so it has no prior attack relevance

2 you have to survive the initial burst of violence. I think a good cover like a peek a boo boxing type has defense value here but most often you behind the curve and it takes time to orient and start your offense. So after the initial ambush IF the attack is still on going then yes those boxing skills can really come into play. However most people who attack in a predatory ambush are not looking to actually fight. The violence is a method to facilitate a goal. Once you show an offensive, very often they will flee.
I am not saying it's not a good skill to have. I just think in this type of blind sided attack the percentages are low for its use. I actually think grappling has a higher percentage.

Realistically, much of MA/SD training doesn't do much to prevent the ambush. As for the second point, I think most folks who've actually boxed (not folks like me who've just studied the technique) have been trained how to work from inside a maelstrom, for those times when their opponent overwhelms them. They have to be able to fight back out of that, or it's the end of the match. A lot of MA doesn't get around to working from this.

 

[hoshin1600]

Realistically, much of MA/SD training doesn't do much to prevent the ambush

In all fairness your correct. My post was broken into three segments of time. Which is how my training methodology works. Before, during and after. I see events along a time line. Which is a complete topic in and of itself but I just want to clarify why that sentence was in that post.

...boxers...have been trained how to work from inside a maelstrom, for those times when their opponent overwhelms them.

Yes and no. There is some benefits but a boxer knows he is in a fight when in the ring. It's a lot different if your just standing in line at the grocery store. The attack is out of context.
However what was really my point is that in many instances the attacker will not be willing to square off and fight you. If he does,, boxing (or any sport trained combat ...as per the OP post) gives you a huge advantage. But predatory attacks usually are not going to do that.

 

[drop bear]

Yes and no. There is some benefits but a boxer knows he is in a fight when in the ring. It's a lot different if your just standing in line at the grocery store. The attack is out of context.
However what was really my point is that in many instances the attacker will not be willing to square off and fight you. If he does,, boxing (or any sport trained combat ...as per the OP post) gives you a huge advantage. But predatory attacks usually are not going to do that.

Yes but are you taking the obvious advantage of an ambush attack and applying it to boxing as some sort of flaw?


Because you are missing elements in your conclusion. So yes a boxer in a boxing match is ready. But a boxer in that match does have strategies for when he is being overwhelmed. To minimize that damage. And a boxer is conditioned to take punches.

We call that training for deep water. You are in the middle of a fight and you are tired and you are beat up. And you have to have a strategy for turning that around. That generally has to be trained by putting the guy under pressure and on that back foot again and again until that is second nature.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In all fairness your correct. My post was broken into three segments of time. Which is how my training methodology works. Before, during and after. I see events along a time line. Which is a complete topic in and of itself but I just want to clarify why that sentence was in that post.

Yes and no. There is some benefits but a boxer knows he is in a fight when in the ring. It's a lot different if your just standing in line at the grocery store. The attack is out of context.
However what was really my point is that in many instances the attacker will not be willing to square off and fight you. If he does,, boxing (or any sport trained combat ...as per the OP post) gives you a huge advantage. But predatory attacks usually are not going to do that.

Agreed. Again, that's a limitation for all of us. If I'm attacked, it's probably not going to be in a dojo or group exercise room, while I'm wearing my superman suit. My point was that boxers are trained to handle a moment when they are overwhelmed, to keep control of themselves and work to regain control of the situation. That's more than can actually be said of a lot of directly SD-oriented training.