Real thanksgiving

[Tez3]

How is people living in villages helping each other 'socialism'? We have heavy snow here at the moment, everyone is helping each other to clear paths, fetch bread and milk and make sure the old and vulnerable are ok,that sort of thing is that socialism then because we live 'communally'? We watch out for the kids, we have a village fete all those sorts of well known socialist activities. Just the same as many communities all round the world.

As Aedrasteia rightly pointed out there was no socialism, communism or the like when the settlers landed in America. How could they live any other way than 'communally' which would have basically meant helping each other out, looking after each other and doing what humans have done since we evolved, it's how the human race survives, it has nothing to do with politics.

There is a vast difference between communism and socialism, Billchihak, I suggest you find out whet the differences are before flinging around how many you think were killed by a political system.

Tell me though, how do you work out the depletion of the buffalo herds is due to 'socialism'? That I want an explanation of! that and the comment 'Indian reservations', what does that mean?

Do you actually have a view of your own that doesn't come from a TV show? Your facts are wonderfully mixed up, ie the 'bankruptcy' of socialist Europe, how come the non socialist countries are suffering just the same then? do you not think that the sub prime mortgage markets of America had anything to do with the banks around the world having a meltdown then?

I have this picture in my head what what the settlers 'should' have done when they landed, they should have all set up businesses, buying and selling everything they needed from each other. Nothing done for free, even the women acting as midwives etc would charge for their services, even the grave digging would come at a price. Each family would be separate from the others, all living in splendid capitalist isolation. Yeah right.

 

[Empty Hands]

How is people living in villages helping each other 'socialism'? We have heavy snow here at the moment, everyone is helping each other to clear paths, fetch bread and milk and make sure the old and vulnerable are ok,that sort of thing is that socialism then because we live 'communally'? We watch out for the kids, we have a village fete all those sorts of well known socialist activities. Just the same as many communities all round the world.

You sick, immoral, perverted bastards! How do you live with yourselves? You damn bunch of moochers and welfare parasites!

Do you actually have a view of your own that doesn't come from a TV show?

Of course he does, Rush Limbaugh hasn't been on TV for years...

 

[Tez3]

You sick, immoral, perverted bastards! How do you live with yourselves? You damn bunch of moochers and welfare parasites!



Of course he does, Rush Limbaugh hasn't been on TV for years...

I know, we stay awake at night worrying about this....not!

Actually the snow is beginning to worry me now, we've had an awful lot of it and we are starting to get cut off, this is definitely not normal, I think it's all a communist plot.
This is just the road from me a couple of days ago ( in the People's Republic of the North Riding of Yorkshire), we've had nearly a foot of snow since and it's still falling. Tis pretty though! ( and you don't get pretty in communist states!)

 

[Blade96]

And have you ever been to Cape Cod? Not the best planting land if you don't know what you're doing. And even if you have some clue, the sseds brought from England would have a real hard time growing in that soil.

I was, in 1992 when i was 14. What i remember about it is its not really farmland as you said.

And I been to plymouth rock. and what i remember most about that is I thought then, Its a place. So i go to it, look over the railing aurrounding something inside and.....its a rock :roflmao:

me being just 14 didnt know it was literally a grey rock with 1620 written on it. I said to my parents 'its just a rock!'

Stunned.... :uhyeah:

 

[granfire]

I know, we stay awake at night worrying about this....not!

Actually the snow is beginning to worry me now, we've had an awful lot of it and we are starting to get cut off, this is definitely not normal, I think it's all a communist plot.
This is just the road from me a couple of days ago ( in the People's Republic of the North Riding of Yorkshire), we've had nearly a foot of snow since and it's still falling. Tis pretty though! ( and you don't get pretty in communist states!)

Stunning picture!
(has me thinking of Jame Harriot DVM)

 

[Tez3]

Thanks Granfire! it's up in the Dales in North Yorkshire. Yes it is Herriot country, he was a vet up here, his son still is. It's very hard country to make a living from, there's really only sheep farming and that's incredibly hard work. The farmers have lived here for generations (some are descended from the Vikings who used to live here) and know the country well, it's quite a hostile environment for humans even in the summer months.
If modern technology was that good there'd be people living all over the moors and hills but it isn't and there are very few people up here. Only the people who know how to live here are the ones here (surprisingly lol), even in the 21st century you can't just descend on a place and expect to make a living from it without actually knowing much. The wheel isn't much good in the snow, even 4x4s can't make it up the road, it's good old Dales ponies, failing that it's Shank's pony. Life hasn't changed a huge lot up here since the days of the Pilgrim Fathers other than some modern conveniences like the air ambulance. You can't rely on electricity or getting to the local supermarket. People are self sufficient, everyone mucking in, oops it's communal living again! I doubt that the original settlers would have survived up on our moors easily without help from the locals so bless them they needed every bit of help they could get so very far across the Pond.

For New Yorkers, this starts in the original York lol!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/york/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9245000/9245061.stm

 

[granfire]

looking at the building I thought about how many times thee god doctor wrote about being stuck out in the freezing cold with a hand up a lambing ewe's butt...

I am from the blazing South (Germany that is) and even there the neighbors lend a hand.
You could not build a barn without the villagers, impossible.
And even today circumstance might force otherwise self sufficient farmers to seek help.

But I think country people have the advantage here:
they have known their neighbors all their lives. The tight knit community of a small village. (then again, the pilgrims were a tight knit social group...)

No man is an island.

PS I was going to suggesting to get a pony....

 

[Tez3]

Excuse this thread 'kidnap', you can have it back in a minute but I know people like nice photos lol and there is a tenous link as William Bradford came from Yorkshire albeit a bit further south.!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/york/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_9231000/9231009.stm

No 14 is my local town, Richmond, the castle can be seen at the back, the old building on the right nearest river is Richmond School where Lewis Carroll went to school.

Ok, back to OP

 

[Tez3]

looking at the building I thought about how many times thee god doctor wrote about being stuck out in the freezing cold with a hand up a lambing ewe's butt...

I am from the blazing South (Germany that is) and even there the neighbors lend a hand.
You could not build a barn without the villagers, impossible.
And even today circumstance might force otherwise self sufficient farmers to seek help.

But I think country people have the advantage here:
they have known their neighbors all their lives. The tight knit community of a small village. (then again, the pilgrims were a tight knit social group...)

No man is an island.

PS I was going to suggesting to get a pony....

Exactly! In that respect little has changed since they set sail for America and it's nothing to do with socialism, people all over the world live like this, under all sorts of political systems.

We have our own breed of ponies up here, lovely sturdy things. Known for taking the farmer home from the pub when he's had a few too many! See! the wheel can't do that for you!

 

[granfire]

LOVE it!! can you email me the little one?

 

[Blade96]

we have our own pony breed here too....the Newfoundland pony.

 

[billc]

I googled these numbers. National Socialists in Germany, death toll:5.9 million jews, Soviet Pow's 2-3 million, ethnic poles 1.82 million plus homosexual, romani, disabled kicks this number up a bit. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics 50-60 million. China, 72 million, Cambodia 3 million(?). So, I figure if the socialists kill another 100 million people they will probably be able to work out the kinks in their system and finally make perfect people for a perfect planet. Yeah, that sub-prime mortgage goof up, I know that Carter and clinton used the community reinvestment act to force banks to make bad loans to people who could not afford them. Our president, Barak, trained A.C.O.R.N. activists in how to intimidate banks into giving bad loans to people who could not afford them. On Rush's show I heard the audio of Sen. Barney Frank and other democrats squaring off against Bush administration officials, telling them that there was nothing wrong with the mortgage industry and that reforms were not necassary. So please, government intervention in the banking industry was a big cause of the meltdown. Banks forced to make bad loans to people who couldn't afford them and then they tried to unload these bad mortgage's, it just made sense. Why do people assume that Jesus would be a lefty? I never understood that. Also, your helping your neighbors is how things should be done. The government should only do those things that people cannot effectively do on their own. Imagine if your town said, one, it will be a punishable offense to help your neighbor, and they site, taking advantage of your neighbor, the possiblily of not doing it right and the usual reasons government takes something over. then they levy a fee, or tax on you and your neighbors to hire public employee's to do the same thing you were doing. They unionize these guys, they waste most of the money, they embezzle the money, all things that happen when government takes over what you do naturally. Imagine how screwed up helping your neighbors would become, and on top of that, the neighbors would not be getting any help. You know this is what happens, you see it all the time.

 

[granfire]

I googled these numbers. National Socialists in Germany, death toll:5.9 million jews, Soviet Pow's 2-3 million, ethnic poles 1.82 million plus homosexual, romani, disabled kicks this number up a bit. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics 50-60 million. China, 72 million, Cambodia 3 million(?). So, I figure if the socialists kill another 100 million people they will probably be able to work out the kinks in their system and finally make perfect people for a perfect planet.

I think the number of dead Russians was closer to 10 million or even 20.

However. You are still not getting past the labels that - in part - were chosen on purpose, to deceive.

National Socialist Germany was a FASCIST, TOTALITARIAN state. Granted, some of the 'improvements' made lower class people's lives a lot better, but it was nor 'socialist', if anything it was the opposite. (read 'Mein Kampf, then again, nobody else did... why should you)

Soviet Russia also liked the socialist label, when indeed they were bolshevic, and, oh, surprise, very totalitarian, especially after dear old Stalin took power...

So, your homework assignment for today would be to research the death toll of Sweden. I mean other than the break-up of ABBA and the demise of Volvo ans Saab.
A country that tried to accomplish the '3rd way'


72 million Chinese don't even register on the radar, Cambodia was a nut job who offed the educated elite of the country...

Like I said, maybe you turn off the TV and actually dig into real sources and learn of what you speak before you do so.


So, let me ask you: Do you like your paid vacation, workman's comp, etc?

Also, many socialist activist were killed prior and during the 3rd Reich. Thrown into the slammer for long, LONG times (as compared to everybody's fav, non German dictator Adolf) maybe you should try to google Rosa Luxemburg and the Spartakus movement.

 

[granfire]

I googled these numbers. National Socialists in Germany, death toll:5.9 million jews, Soviet Pow's 2-3 million, ethnic poles 1.82 million plus homosexual, romani, disabled kicks this number up a bit. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics 50-60 million. China, 72 million, Cambodia 3 million(?). So, I figure if the socialists kill another 100 million people they will probably be able to work out the kinks in their system and finally make perfect people for a perfect planet. Yeah, that sub-prime mortgage goof up, I know that Carter and clinton used the community reinvestment act to force banks to make bad loans to people who could not afford them. Our president, Barak, trained A.C.O.R.N. activists in how to intimidate banks into giving bad loans to people who could not afford them. On Rush's show I heard the audio of Sen. Barney Frank and other democrats squaring off against Bush administration officials, telling them that there was nothing wrong with the mortgage industry and that reforms were not necassary. So please, government intervention in the banking industry was a big cause of the meltdown. Banks forced to make bad loans to people who couldn't afford them and then they tried to unload these bad mortgage's, it just made sense. Why do people assume that Jesus would be a lefty? I never understood that. Also, your helping your neighbors is how things should be done. The government should only do those things that people cannot effectively do on their own. Imagine if your town said, one, it will be a punishable offense to help your neighbor, and they site, taking advantage of your neighbor, the possiblily of not doing it right and the usual reasons government takes something over. then they levy a fee, or tax on you and your neighbors to hire public employee's to do the same thing you were doing. They unionize these guys, they waste most of the money, they embezzle the money, all things that happen when government takes over what you do naturally. Imagine how screwed up helping your neighbors would become, and on top of that, the neighbors would not be getting any help. You know this is what happens, you see it all the time.

I am sure the staff appreciates your effort to keep the discussion uncluttered, but for argument's sake, when you go off on a completely new tangent, do us all a favor and make brand new post.

and add a hard return to it, a paragraph here and there so we can actually tell where the ideas separate or intersect.

However...
no, never mind. trying to follow you burned up my GPS.

 

[CanuckMA]

Bill, turn off Rush, and look north. It's a great socialist country that borders you. Other than strongly worded letters, our government doesn't do much violence.

 

[Tez3]

I googled these numbers. National Socialists in Germany, death toll:5.9 million jews, Soviet Pow's 2-3 million, ethnic poles 1.82 million plus homosexual, romani, disabled kicks this number up a bit.

National Socialists were Fascists, very Far Right.



Union of Soviet Socialist Republics 50-60 million. China, 72 million, Cambodia 3 million(?).

Communists not socialists



So, I figure if the socialists kill another 100 million people they will probably be able to work out the kinks in their system and finally make perfect people for a perfect planet.

Many countries have socialist goverments, some have Christian Socialist goverments. they don't go around killing people.




Yeah, that sub-prime mortgage goof up, I know that Carter and clinton used the community reinvestment act to force banks to make bad loans to people who could not afford them. Our president, Barak, trained A.C.O.R.N. activists in how to intimidate banks into giving bad loans to people who could not afford them. On Rush's show I heard the audio of Sen. Barney Frank and other democrats squaring off against Bush administration officials, telling them that there was nothing wrong with the mortgage industry and that reforms were not necassary. So please, government intervention in the banking industry was a big cause of the meltdown. Banks forced to make bad loans to people who couldn't afford them and then they tried to unload these bad mortgage's, it just made sense.

Do you spend all your time watching television?



Why do people assume that Jesus would be a lefty?

Why assume he wasn't?



I never understood that. Also, your helping your neighbors is how things should be done. The government should only do those things that people cannot effectively do on their own. Imagine if your town said, one, it will be a punishable offense to help your neighbor, and they site, taking advantage of your neighbor, the possiblily of not doing it right and the usual reasons government takes something over. then they levy a fee, or tax on you and your neighbors to hire public employee's to do the same thing you were doing. They unionize these guys, they waste most of the money, they embezzle the money, all things that happen when government takes over what you do naturally. Imagine how screwed up helping your neighbors would become, and on top of that, the neighbors would not be getting any help. You know this is what happens, you see it all the time.

We know nothing of the sort for two reasons.
!. we don't actually know what you are talking about and
2. we can't understand your posts.

 

[granfire]

We know nothing of the sort for two reasons.
!. we don't actually know what you are talking about and
2. we can't understand your posts.

:lfao::lfao:

That does about cover it...

 

[billc]

I never understood what people meant when they said Nazis were far right and communists were far left. I got the left part but not the far right part. I did some looking into it and found that if you are far right, you like limited government. A far right nut job would be someone who goes and lives on a mountain to avoid having to deal with the federal authorities. The far left, however, loves big all controlling governments that control every last detail of their citizens lives. That is why the Nazis, communists, socialists, and fascists are all really the same thing. They all worked and work for the largest government possible often to either soul draining or life stealing effect. It is like ice cream, you have strawberry ice cream and chocolate and vanilla, but they are all flavors of ice cream. Nazis, communists, fascists, socialists are all big government control ideologies. Besides, I believe it was Lenin who came up with the term fascist to distinguish his international socialism from the socialists in Italy and Germany. And let's not forget WW2 Japan, they were socialists as well. Also, Hitler and Mussolini were both fans of Marx, Hitler just believed in it for Germans. Also, the saying in germany at the time when the marxists were helping the early Adolf was first the brown shirts, then the red shirts. Unfortunately for the communists version in germany, hitler wanted his guys in charge, that is why he arrested all the old time commies.

 

[Empty Hands]

I did some looking into it and found that if you are far right, you like limited government.

"some looking" = "listened to Mark Levin some more"?

This is only true for a small part of the modern right, and in America in particular. Ideologues never seem to understand that "right" and "left" are entirely context dependent. "Right" is synonymous with "conservatism." "Conservatism" broadly defined is resistance to political/social change, and a preference for traditional institutions and modes of governance. A conservative in 2010 in America may wish to preserve certain libertarian ideals implicit in the founding, of which a small government is a part. A conservative in 2010 in Iran may wish to preserve the theocracy of the Mullahs. A conservative in 2010 in the UK may wish to preserve the health system they have had for more than 60 years, no matter how "left" an American conservative may think it is. A conservative in 1700 in France would have been a monarchist.

So, the Nazis and fascism generally. Fascism emphasized a return to the values of the past like working the soil in contrast to modern work and values (especially art). Fascism emphasized the power and authority of business and military interests over that of the common people. German fascism emphasized a return to the racial purity of a mythical group of ancient people (the Aryans). Generally speaking, fascism was all about returning to the supposedly superior values of the past, purifying the race to a superior group from the past, and emphasizing strength and conquest. All of these values properly understood are conservative, albeit extreme.

When you look at a totalitarian left example, such as the USSR, you do not see this emphasis on the past or on conserving or regaining lost values. The ideology of the USSR was all about ideological purity and moving forward into the future, with new future values and new future superiority. Thus, the essential difference between the right wing fascists and the left wing communists.

Words mean things. Conservatism is not defined by the positions currently espoused by Rush et al., and you can't twist that to suit your ends. At least not honestly.

 

[Tez3]

I never understood what people meant when they said Nazis were far right and communists were far left. I got the left part but not the far right part. I did some looking into it and found that if you are far right, you like limited government.

Limited to a dictator usually!




A far right nut job would be someone who goes and lives on a mountain to avoid having to deal with the federal authorities.

If only they would!


The far left, however, loves big all controlling governments that control every last detail of their citizens lives.

yep so do far right dictators


That is why the Nazis, communists, socialists, and fascists are all really the same thing.

there you go again, lumping everyone in the same basket when they really aren't



They all worked and work for the largest government possible often to either soul draining or life stealing effect. It is like ice cream, you have strawberry ice cream and chocolate and vanilla, but they are all flavors of ice cream. Nazis, communists, fascists, socialists are all big government control ideologies.

All politicians want to control the masses.


Besides, I believe it was Lenin who came up with the term fascist to distinguish his international socialism from the socialists in Italy and Germany. And let's not forget WW2 Japan, they were socialists as well.

with an Emperor? A curious sort of socialism that!



Also, Hitler and Mussolini were both fans of Marx,

Karl, Harpo or Groucho?

Hitler just believed in it for Germans. Also, the saying in germany at the time when the marxists were helping the early Adolf was first the brown shirts, then the red shirts. Unfortunately for the communists version in germany, hitler wanted his guys in charge, that is why he arrested all the old time commies.

Now there you are so wrong, Hitler despised the Marxists as they did him.
Where do you get your history from?